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**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:10 AM

Well said Daniel

Here is a good example for that .... the GAB which can be found in Poellath packets but which is still identified as Juncker GAB, by it's hardware and the great forensic of the past.

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**Thomas Durante** · 07-03-2013, 08:13 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

I would be agree that Schickle could be the possible designer of the badge but why the maker of all of them?

Hi Andreas,

We don't know if Schickle would be the maker of all of these badges. But if we can determine that a few of them are, then it is logical to think that this supplement legitimately belongs to Schickle.

If you then couple it with all the forensic evidence on the badges themselves that Norm provides in the thread he attached, then the case becomes solid IMO.

Ofcourse we wouldn't know 100% for sure, but with the limited documents we have, the scenario of Schickle as the maker of these badges makes sense to me.

Tom

**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:15 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

For sure a good point, and the reason why we should try to find out if the medals on the pillow can be attributed to Schickle or not, which is what I am trying to do.

If we focus on just the badges we know are "probably" marked (like the RK, Spanish Cross, KVKs, etc.) then we can determine if this suppliment actually goes with the Schickle catalog or not.

Hi Tom,

would it help us? Let's say: yes that is all Schickle stuff but after that read my post #79. If B.H. Mayer bought the PAB tools via the IHK Pforzheim the porduced badge is made by them and not a Schickle anymore, so it's nonsens to call a L/18 marked badge a Schickle made one.

**Thomas Durante** · 07-03-2013, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

but after that read my post #79.

Hi Andreas, which post is that?

Thanks

T

**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

Hi Andreas, which post is that?

Thanks

T

... sory a typo i meant #29.

**Thomas Durante** · 07-03-2013, 08:25 AM

I got it, never mind (post #29).

If another firm, such as B H Mayer acquired the Schickle tools, then ofcourse the obverse and reverse die characteristics would be the same, however there would be differences in the reverse hardware. Its my opinion that each firm used somewhat unique hardware, whether they got it from a unique third party supplier or made it themselves, I don't know. But either way, I think we can tell a Schickle-made PAB from a BH Mayer-made PAB by the reverse hardware.

But this may just be academic, as I don't think we know of a single instance of another maker using Schickle's tools. On one hand, we have double-marked Schickle badges, so we know that other makers like Zimmermann & Foester & Barth took completed Schickle badges, stuck their own maker mark on them, then sold them. But do we know that any maker actually used the Schickle tools to actually stamp out new badges?

Tom

**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

I got it, never mind (post #29).

If another firm, such as B H Mayer acquired the Schickle tools, then ofcourse the obverse and reverse die characteristics would be the same, however there would be differences in the reverse hardware. Its my opinion that each firm used somewhat unique hardware, whether they got it from a unique third party supplier or made it themselves, I don't know. But either way, I think we can tell a Schickle-made PAB from a BH Mayer-made PAB by the reverse hardware.

Tom

So based on that the pillow crimped Vienna design badges are made by B.H. Mayer because they share similiar hardware as the L/18 marked pillow crimped wound badge?

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**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:43 AM

Iab:

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**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by Thomas Durante View Post

But do we know that any maker actually used the Schickle tools to actually stamp out new badges?

How does a single L/18 marked badges counts compared to totally unmarked badges?

**Thomas Durante** · 07-03-2013, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

So based on that the pillow crimped Vienna design badges are made by B.H. Mayer because they share similiar hardware as the L/18 marked pillow crimped wound badge?

Hi Andreas,

Yes, it is possible that the pillow-crimped badges could very well be made by BH Mayer.

It could be that when Mayer switched to solid, zinc production they took the opportunity to crimp in their reverse hardware.

Tom

**Norm F** · 07-03-2013, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

There is no evidence that the papers belong to the catalog and we had some years ago in the crosses area a discussion about them and i'm still of the opinion which i wrote in the past that these papers showing a photo of a sellers shop window and are not a supplement of any sales catalog.

Hi Andreas,

Thanks for posting the images for reference. While it's true there are no identifying markings on the supplement sheets other than printed page numbers in the lower right corners of each sheet, they show photos of the same Schickle Legion Condor Panzer badge and U-Boat badge that are also contained in the Schickle marked catalog. As well the same Destroyer badge that is found with Schickle's L/15 stamp is shown in those supplement sheets. It's the shared photos between the marked catalog and the inserted loose sheets that suggest this was indeed a supplement showing Schickle products. You're right that doesn't rule out the possibility that the sheets show a mixture of Schickle and other products, but if three of the seven war badges in that supplement are already confirmed Schickle products then it's very suggestive. And all three of the confirmed badges mentioned can be found with the same distinctive catch that is on the PAB being discussed here which also matches the catalog image. This circumstantial evidence is then combined with all the other forensics mentioned in the other thread.

Best regards,
---Norm

**BassD** · 07-03-2013, 08:53 AM

about the Schickle catalog some comments

- why should Schickle use additional sheets together with a catalog from 1939 if they have a new catalog printed in 1940 with new prices?

- why should Schickle offered in additional sheets the Uboot badge and other badges (without numbers to order) when i offered them in hin 1940er catalog?

- why we have no price list for this additional sheets?

Maybe this sheets are examples for the LDO Shops how they can offer the awards in the shoping window?

@ Tom
about your opinion that each firm use their own set ups (from a special supplier or they made it self)... the research till today shows that i found 24 or 25 firms that ordered needle systems from one supplier (S&L was one of them), and i know other firms that also produce needle systems... so i think the possibility that this one firm delievered all 24/25 firms with special unique needle systems was very low. To know that this firms all ordered needle systems shows me that they did not produce the needle systems self. Till today i have found no firm that produce the needle systems self.

The firm i mean also produce needle for the iron cross, german cross, IAB, PAB, GAB and WB

**Andreas Klein** · 07-03-2013, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by BassD View Post

Maybe this sheets are examples for the LDO Shops how they can offer the awards in the shoping window?

Something like this .... the GOdet shop window in Berlin. Please note the IAB in the middle of the picture - surprise, surprise.

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godet.jpg (90.8 KB, 120 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 07-03-2013, 09:03 AM

Originally posted by BassD View Post

@Tom
about your opinion that each firm use their own set ups (from a special supplier or they made it self)... the research till today shows that i found 24 or 25 firms that ordered needle systems from one supplier (S&L was one of them), and i know other firms that also produce needle systems... so i think the possibility that this one firm delievered all 24/25 firms with special unique needle systems was very low. To know that this firms all ordered needle systems shows me that they did not produce the needle systems self. Till today i have found no firm that produce the needle systems self.

Hi Basti,

I have no doubt that this is true. There is no question that some makers did use common suppliers. But there should also be no doubt that other makers used unique hardware only to their firm. And it is also true that some of the same makers that sometimes used common hardware from 25 other firms, also used unique hardware on some of their badges (S&L being one of them). I think we showed this quite conclusively in the Rettenmaier thread.

So both can be true.

Tom

**Norm F** · 07-03-2013, 09:11 AM

Originally posted by Andreas Klein View Post

Based on the evidences shown in the linked thread the Schickle tools and half finshed stuff were sold via the IHK Pforzheim, so every firm which was in contact with the IHK Pfozheim was able to obtain the tools to produce a "Schickle design" badge afterwards.

A point of correction. As mentioned in the linked thread, the official PK published announcement gave permission for Schickle to sell of his "remaining stock" and even then only those items approved by the LDO and sold by the local Chamber of Commerce -- there was no mention of selling off his tools, and as we know he was allowed to continue his manufacturing business but specifically denied the manufacture of official 3rd Reich awards and miniatures. Furthermore, the original prohibition from July 1, 1941 stated: "Whoever continues to receive further manufactured goods of the mentioned type from the firm of Schickle is committing a criminal offense." Anyone deciding to take Schickle's tooling and make the same badges using the same hardware he used on his marked wound badges would be a brave man indeed in that political climate.

Best regards,
---Norm

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