New Addition - Possible maker connection - Rettenmaier = "Flatback" Maker

[Hans Kondor]

One last interesting compare of a "flatback" GAB and PAB to a Rettenmaier-marked EK1.

Notice a common feature on all 3 of these?

Tom

Hello Tom!

My guess is that you are talking about the straight lines made by the grinding process.

[Andreas Klein]

Notice a common feature on all 3 of these?

Tom

All badges are made in the third reich area ?

[Nick Carraway]

Andreas,

Finally something you and Tom can agree on!

Nick

[Andreas Klein]

Nick,

indeed ....

[Thomas Durante]

Hello Tom!

My guess is that you are talking about the straight lines made by the grinding process.

Indeed Hans These rough marks are a classic feature of all "flatbacks", so finding them on a Rettenmaier EK1 is significant connection........in my opinion.

Again, not 100% proof of Rettenmaier and the search continues for more evidence. My goal with this thread was mainly to put all these little pieces of the puzzle into one thread and try and organize it in a written way instead of rattling around in my head

Thanks guys.

Tom

[Norm F]

One last interesting compare of a "flatback" GAB and PAB to a Rettenmaier-marked EK1.

Probably good to also include this in this thread, a flat-back U-boat next to a Rettenmaier marked EK1. (Don't forget that Rettenmaier continued in business post-war which makes it hard to know for sure when products were assembled?)

Best regards,
---Norm

[petopoint]

Nice work

Nice detective work Tom. This information looks promising enough to warrant further study and the possibility of clearing up some foggy hypothetical accounts concerning maker and location. An addendum or information to this discovery could/should be included in future historical aspects of TR mfgr books/periodicals. Thanks

[luggas]

To reassign a Maker only with the style of a hook is for me not serious.

[Nick Carraway]

To reassign a Maker only with the style of a hook is for me not serious.

You have not read all of this. First, this is a discussion on who the maker could be. Second, Tom put more than a hook out there. You people only want a MM on the badge. Why is discussion such a frightening thing?

[Graeme]

Guys

Lets keep this thread on track please, without personal remarks.

It is a good thread.

thanks
Graeme

[Van]

Yes a very good thread, very interesting. Learn something new every day.. Good work everyone...
Van

[Thomas Durante]

To reassign a Maker only with the style of a hook is for me not serious.

I couldn't agree more Luggas, it would be silly to assign a maker based on just the catch.

Thanks for all the comments so far guys, much appreciated. And thanks Norm for adding the "flatback" uboat with the same pin as the Rettenmaier EK1, another piece of the puzzle.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

You have not read all of this. First, this is a discussion on who the maker could be. Second, Tom put more than a hook out there. You people only want a MM on the badge. Why is discussion such a frightening thing?

Hi Nick,

the problem ist that this thread like many other "possible maker" threads is full of unproven guesswork which is repeated again again and again until enough people jumped on it and it's accepted as "evidence".

If you look at the dealer prices for the new discovered "Schickle", "Steinhauer&Lück", "Petz&Lorenz", "Deumer" combat badges based on such threads than you can see what we have done to the collectors community with such threads in the past: high prices for pure stories ....

Many of those mentioned points which are talked to an evidence is wishfull thinking:

1. the "Pforzheim" catch

... can be found on nearly every wound badge in the german area. Vienna, Lüdenscheid, Berlin .... all used it but surprise surprise now it is a "Pforzheim" exclusive catch which points to Rettenmeier.

2. findings of this IAB in the Pforzheim area

Well, last year we had a massive found of RS marked IAB and PAB together with their packets in the area of Heidelberg. Does this prove that Souval never was located in Vienna ??? Now, the reason was a shop located in the Heidelberg area who sold Souval badges.

So these findings can be all or nothing ... who knows the real source of the badges and why the ended there?

3. third party suppliers of setups

Again and again you have to read that this or that catch points to maker X or Y ... but that ignores that most makers hadn't tools t produce setups so they bought it.

4. third party suppliers of dies

Please ask yourself why Rettenmeier marked their wound badge and iron cross but not the rest of their possible production? How can we say that all flatbacks are made by Rettenmeier ??? How can we exclude Alfred Besson of Schwäbisch Gemünd for example as maker of the flatbacks?

5. finish lines on the backside

Nice and now? Nearly every black wound badge features the same black finish. Because all were made by the same firm?

No, because of the technical standard to apply a finish shared by all makers and because of the official production rules. So a similiar finish on these badges shows only that a unknown number of makers used the same technical standard to apply a finish to their badges.

[Nick Carraway]

Andreas,

I fully understand what you are saying. But this is also a discussion forum and as valuable as Tom speculating is, your grounded criticism is also valuable. I'm sorry but this is a place to talk out loud. What dealers do is outside our control. I appreciate everyone's contributions and hope we can see value in open debate.

Besson? It must be Besson!

Best,
Nick

[Norm F]

Hi Andreas,

1. the "Pforzheim" catch

... can be found on nearly every wound badge in the german area. Vienna, Lüdenscheid, Berlin .... all used it but surprise surprise now it is a "Pforzheim" exclusive catch which points to Rettenmeier.

Not one person has ever suggested or ever will suggest that this catch is exclusive to Pforzheim - the wide distribution on wound badges has always been stressed as in the thread quoted earlier. Nevertheless it features prominently (and almost exclusively) in the Pforzheim area when it appears on KM badges -- hence the nickname "Pforzheim-P" catch. But it's just a useful nickname and no one uses it as sole evidence for attribution.

3. third party suppliers of setups

Again and again you have to read that this or that catch points to maker X or Y ... but that ignores that most makers hadn't tools t produce setups so they bought it.

Sure, setups were purchased from 3rd party suppliers, but obviously each maker had their preferences regarding the use of those setups on particular products so that patterns of usage occur. It's these patterns of usage rather than the individual piece of hardware that are significant (although in the case of S&L, the classic S&L catch alone is almost exclusive to S&L).

4. third party suppliers of dies

The working theory (as supported by the badge forensics and the S&L/Wissmann correspondence) is that the maker of the flatbacks used dies from the same 3rd party provider who supplied other makers such as S&L, Schickle, P&L, Mayer, F&B and Souval -- quite likely Wissmann in at least some cases.

Please ask yourself why Rettenmeier marked their wound badge and iron cross but not the rest of their possible production?

Official KM awards are almost all unmarked aside from the odd badge that used a pin from an EK1 or KVK1. Most makers who marked their iron crosses didn't mark their combat badges since there was no requirement to mark official KM awards as there was for iron crosses, other than private purchase items. (Also there remains a possibility that a significant proportion of flatbacks were for the post-war souvenir and replacement markets at which time no marking would occur, in Germany anyway.)

How can we say that all flatbacks are made by Rettenmeier ??? How can we exclude Alfred Besson of Schwäbisch Gemünd for example as maker of the flatbacks?

We can't and we don't.

Nick said it best. This is a discussion forum where we combine our observations and theorize as a group - a productive ferment from which revelations can sometimes occur. And the "debating" aspect is crucial to this process so I'm glad you're here!

Best regards,
---Norm