Oddball heer flak

[Nick Carraway]

Tom,
I hope you do an in-hand examination. There are a lot of unknowns here, and the badge looks soft in photos. Let us know if you are able to do a solid investigation. I think it's great Patrick is willing to send it to you
Nick

[Thomas Durante]

I would love to handle this one Nick, but I think this is more of Garlasco's realm. I will send him an email but not sure if he is around anymore though

Tom

[Nick Carraway]

Tom,
How do we reconcile the Linden catch in the first badge in this post?

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...&highlight=FLL

[Thomas Durante]

Nick, I will post the catch you are talking about here so we don't have to go back and forth to that link.

[Thomas Durante]

As you know, that catch is a good link to FLL because it can be found on other FLL-marked badges like their PABs, IABs, etc.

But its not really unique to FLL, other makers used it as well. One maker that used this catch and also can somtimes be found with the same hinge as the "FLL" Army Flaks is Friedrich Orth. Other than FLL, I think Orth would be an excellent candidate for the maker of this type of flak badge. Here is an Orth IAB with the same type of catch, from Lorenzo's excellent collection

Orth IABs and PABs & GABs all have the "Vienna Design". Coincidently, the FLL army flak also has the "vienna design", so this is another piece of evidence that could point in the direction of Orth IMO.

Wurster also used this type of catch, so its not really a unique fingerprint just for FLL.

Tom

[Nick Carraway]

Thanks Tom! That Orth info is great. Just trying to figure out what we have here. I am not sold on the FLL43 badge, but would love to see more discussion! Just a year ago we didn't know about the Brehmer/Meybauer design - interesting times!

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Nick

Yes, the softness is still a little of a concern for me as well. However, FLL's LW Paratrooper Badges have soft wreaths because they were cast. I have found raised seams on these (see page 221 in the Paratrooper Badge book), so casting is not necessarily a bad thing. And the timeframe of 1943 coincides nicely with the cast paratrooper badge wreaths, so that is some food for thought.

Indeed exciting discoveries! I love days like this in our hobby!

Tom

[Patrick W]

Great comments guys- its a really good feeling to make a discovery and hopefully add something to our combined knowledge. I will try and take some better photos tomorrow and add them.
I will email Marc also- does he still contribute here? I would be interested in your thoughts on having it in hand Tom as I know you have a very good knowledge of different makers of all types of badge and also manufacturing processes. I'd be happy to send to you first or for Marc to send to you

Thanks

Patrick

[Patrick W]

I've been having a very close look at this badge and can add the following

- It appears to be die cast and not die struck

- The edges are finished with a very fine file or tool so they appear smooth. Whoever has done the finish has also tried to replicate the lines of the gun barrel and breech all the way to the back of the badge.

- The swastica does have a step which is not visible on my crap photos

- The hinge block and catch have been soldered prior to the grey finish being applied. the pin was added after. Hinge pin is pushed through from the right hand side.

- The badge has a laquer of some type on it and is almost mint

- The design of the eagles head is actually very nice and quite comparable to other wartime badges.

[Patrick W]

here are some better pictures

[Patrick W]

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[Patrick W]

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[Patrick W]

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[Nick Carraway]

Patrick,

I really like what I see. The hardware is typical FLL. The issues I think that will be resolved if Tom and Marc can look at it are the general softness, which could be photos. I have also never seen a Heer Flak without base rivets, but the Luft Flak by FLL is very plain, so why not. The legs are also plain, but see prior comment.

This is getting good!

Nick

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Patrick was kind enough to send me the badge for a hands-on inspection and I have really enjoyed studying this one in the flesh. I liked it just based on the pics in this thread, but in hand I am even more convinced that this is an original FLL product. I will first post some good scans and pictures, and then a few compares with some other FLL badges in my collection so you guys can form your own opinions. I still have the badge with me if you guys would like to see any better pictures, so just let me know.

The badge definiately has a "cast" feel to me, and very reminiscent of FLL's Luftwaffe Paratrooper badge wreaths. The wreath appears very smooth, and I think the finish has alot to do with this. Under close scrutiny you can see that it actually has a rough surface in some areas, just like the FLL Para wreaths. So this consistency with the Para wreaths convinces me they were both produced in the same way.

There reverse hardware setup is also classic FLL in my opinion. Sitting this next to one of my FLL Luftwaffe Ground Assault badges, you can really see the similarities in the setup:

-- Block hinge, made of brass sitting upright
-- Thinner, copper-colored central barrel that the pin is soldered to
-- Brass hingepin
-- Nickel silver pin
-- Thick Brass Catch
-- Oval catchplate
-- Large patches of sloppy solder around the hinge and catch

And then a compare of the maker mark with that of an FLL General Assault Badge shows they are identical IMO. The GAB's mark was struck weaker, but you can still make out all the exact features of the nummerals and letters. Especially convincing is the filled-in parts of the circles of the "F" and left "L", and must have been created with the same stamp IMO.

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts and comments.

A very big THANK-YOU to Patrick for sending this out for scrutiny. This is probably the 5th or 6th badge Patrick has sent me, and there is never any hesitation on his part. Its in the mail the next day. A true gentleman collector, I think we are all lucky to have such a great collector among us!

Tom