Oddball heer flak

[Patrick W]

This rather weird badge was bought as a copy and I can't match it to any design. The details are pretty soft but some aspects- the setup in particular are quite appealing. Anyone seen this one before?

[Patrick W]

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[Patrick W]

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[Christopher G.]

I have never seen a marked FLL before and this one certainly has the look of being a cast badge. Although that is a good looking FLL catch...still a fake for me though.

Regards,
Chris G.

[Chet Sowersby]

I agree with Chris. The catch does give a moments pause but thats gone when viewing the rest of the badge.

Chet

[Nick Carraway]

The design does not match the FLL that Durante first discovered. It is closer to the Funke design. There are a number of mistakes on the badge obverse that give it away though I will refrain from helping the fakers. That they use a plausible catch should not be a surprise as Tom has so often shown in the CCC fakes. It shows they pay attention, but are still fakers. Thanks for showing - a very, very interesting fake!

[Chet Sowersby]

Nick,
Good knowledge!

Chet

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Patrick,

Interesting flak for sure. I do like the look of the reverse hardware, not only the catch but also the hinge reminds me quite a bit of FLL badges.

However, the soft reverse edges are a big concern for me. The stamped maker mark looks OK, similar to the stamped ones found on FLL GABs. But we can also find this type of mark on a LW bomber clasp that we believe to be Assmann. In the case of the LW bomber, I feel quite strongly that the FLL mark was added later, so its possible that someone out there has a believable FLL stamp. This could be the case with your example.

One I would love to study in hand and not one I would immediately toss in the trash. I don't blame you for picking it up to study.

Tom

[mmiller]

Hi Tom,

Not disputing your thoughts, just following the 'process' through. If I understand you correctly, and if the FLL mark was added later to the Bomber Spange, wouldn't the makermark indentations need to be filled/covered with gilting?

Regards,
Mark

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Mark,

Not sure I understand your question about the finish? I think it is very hard to determine when maker marks were added, either before or after the finish. You would think that if the maker mark was added AFTER the finish was applied, then the finish inside the mark would be disturbed or broken, right? But I don't think that is the case.

A perfect example of this is the finish on CCCs, inside the crimped areas for the backplate. We know that the finish was always added first, then the backplate was installed and crimped down. You would think that inside the crimp marks, the finish would be broken and disturbed, but that is rarely the case in my experience. Almost all the CCCs I have studied have perfect finish inside the crimps, so I think the finish used on these badges/clasps was alot more durable than we tend to think. So that is why I think it is hard to determine if a maker mark was added before or after a finish was applied.

But even though, there are other reasons to suspect this FLL marking on the bomber clasp. This bomber is the only example of this type to ever be found marked. I own several of this type and have many more on file (both bomber and Recon), and they are all unmarked. Further, the physical evidence on the clasp itself points to the maker being someone other than FLL in my opinion. I personally believe it is Assmann, here is a thread I did a while back about these:

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=452991

Additionally, we have identified the Recon clasps that were likely the ones made by FLL, and it is not this type of clasp. So there is quite a bit of evidence to suggest that FLL was not the maker of this bomber clasp and why I believe the FLL mark on it is not wartime-applied.

Tom

[Nick Carraway]

Patrick, is there any chance you could send that Flak to Garlasco for an inspection? I am sure he would like to handle it and compare it to his large flak collection.
Nick

[Giel VW]

Hi Patrick,

Indeed a very interesting example and like Tom the set up reminded me of the solid FLL43 GAB's. Hand inspection by someone who knows his stuff will tell for sure

[Patrick W]

Hi Guys

Thanks for the comments- I picked this badge up because I instantly liked the setup. If you compare the setup and mm on this badge to the FLL GABs you will find an exact match. The finish is a very nice burnished silver grey and there is no line to indicate a cast. Of interest to me also is the lack of not only rivits around the gun but also any fletching to the eagles feathers.

Possibly a first attempt by this maker that never went into production or perhaps the current believed FLL flak is actually by someone else?

the more I look at it the more I like it......

I would be happy to send for a hands on to Tom or Marc, just let me know

Best

Patrick

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Interestingly enough, Staegemeir has tried his hand at making an "FLL" Army Flak badge, here it is.

It is very similar in design to Patrick's, notice the lack of rivets at the base of the gun. The eagle design is also similar, but there are enough differences that we can say for sure that both of these badges did not come out of the same die, which is a very good sign for Patrick's example IMO.

The reverse hardware and weird finish on Staegemeir's is also quite different from Patrick's and quite different from any original Army flak badge. And the FLL marking is not the same, actually looks quite crude on Staegemeir's example compared to Patrick's.

So I don't think there is any connection to Staegemeir and Patrick's example, but the similarity in design was worth noting IMO.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Possibly a first attempt by this maker that never went into production or perhaps the current believed FLL flak is actually by someone else?

That is ofcourse a possibility Patrick.

Here is my "FLL" example. Although not typical FLL hardware like yours, this type of hinge and catch combination are found on FLL PABs and some of their other badges. Furthermore, mine came in an FLL-marked box, but we cannot be sure if this box has always been with this exact Heer Para badge. So that is where the connection to FLL comes in.

Even without the benefit of the maker mark on your example, I would have to say that the hardware is very FLL-like and would be more inclined to say yours is the true FLL. Not only the hardware, but notice the big patches of solder around the hinge and catch, another very typical signature of FLL production.

Very significant discovery you have made here Patrick!

Tom