Dutch SS Sports Badge Details

[Runic]

I have had a few collectors put a question to me: why would the booklet for the Dutch SS Sports Badge be produced and accepted as totally genuine by leading experts - and they exist in extremely rare numbers - as prototype examples, I suppose -
without prototypes of the badges themselves being struck as well? Why go to all the trouble to make the booklet and have it ready to be filled out, and Not have prototypes of the two badges struck?

I don't know. It's an intriguing question, and I certainly don't say that my example is the prototype. But it makes one wonder, nevertheless. Why is the prototype award booklet accepted as a reality - but the existence of a prototype badge example said to be impossible?

I am only repeating arguments put to me by various collectors. I don't need a tinfoil hat, as some have suggested

This is tipping my hat to those who still hold out hope that some prototype exists out there. I am neutral on the subject. Nuff said!

[Runic]

I haven't revisited this subject for along time,
But I noticed on RJS72's post of the Dutch SS newspaper that first announced this award, during wartime, that RJS72 reversed the pictures of the sports badges, with and without sword. So that they appear upside down. The original paper, I believe, showed them right side up.
This was my original argument:that if you look at the two badges in the original diagram, and look at them upside down, you realize that the one with swords is much narrower than the badge without swords.

This holds true for all early badges. The badges with and without the sword have entirely different shapes, which is much easier to see by turning the badges upside down.

What does this prove? Unfortunately it can't prove some of these badges were made in wartime. But I think it certainly proves that whoever made these early badges adhered to the diagram in the Dutch SS newspaper, making the badge with sword an entirely different shape than the badge without sword, as the Dutch SS. Newspaper diagrammed the two different awards.

You would think fakers would make the wreaths the same width, just adding swords too the same size wreath as non-sword awards. Food for thought at least. Why did the "fakers" go to such trouble to adhere to one issue of a Dutch SS newspaper's guidelines? Why go by the strict diagram of the only published announcement of this award? To fool future collectors who would likely never see this single issue of the Dutch SS newspaper, with its limited production run?
Someone followed the original diagrams, and there well may have been prototypes struck. It's as reasonable an excuse for the early examples being identical to the only known diagrams as any other theory. And the original diagrams were never widely known.

IMO

[Runic]

Ok Troops, here’s the scoop .
Listen up, this is the straight skinny.
So, everyone has been running down the Dutch SS Sports Badge.
Here’s the real deal: the Dutch SS Sports Badge was planned during war time and diagrammed, see earlier in this thread. In fact the design of the Dutch SS Sports Badge is to be found in a wartime Dutch SS newspaper; the version with and without the swords have differerent sized and shaped wreaths.
What gets me - if you look earlier in this thread, some accept the award document for the Dutch SS Sports Badge as totally real, but the Dutch SS Sports Badge , even in prototype, as impossible somehow!!!!
They say the award document Was created; but any prototype of the Dutch SS Sports Badge is impossible, “due to timing!”
What in the hell does that mean??!
Every award of the Nazi era had its prototypes and final awards. They come in all shapes and sizes.
I can post the original drawings for every Nazi naval award- I have the diagrams and specifications. Just like the diagram and specifications found in the Dutch SS magazine.
So , my question is, How can the award booklet / prototype for the Dutch SS Sports Badge be valid, if Any prototype of the medal itself is impossible.
Somebody, somewhere, somehow has the authority to know, that the prototype booklet is valid, but no prototype medal is valid??? Where the hell is the proof???

Sure, lots of copiers followed the original from the SS magazine. Does that mean that all are fake? Even the earliest and rarest strikes? The one I present here is totally unique to my knowledge. Show me another one Like what I present here. I guarantee you that any panzer assault badge, any infantry assault badge, any Iron Cross has more fakes following it than the original Dutch SS Sorts Badge I present here.
Remember, dear readers, you saw it here first, off the record, on the QT, and definitely, Hush-Hush!

[Runic]

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[Runic]

Mas

[Runic]

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[Runic]

Other Foreign Legion Sports Badge

VNV Sports Badge: rare and beautiful- and actually accepted as genuine. I had to post this after the Dutch Badge- I know how controversial the Dutch Badge is.

I know it should be in the Tony Barto section. But it looks good here, too. If only to redeem me.

[jabnus]

I have had a few collectors put a question to me: why would the booklet for the Dutch SS Sports Badge be produced and accepted as totally genuine by leading experts - and they exist in extremely rare numbers - as prototype examples, I suppose -
without prototypes of the badges themselves being struck as well? Why go to all the trouble to make the booklet and have it ready to be filled out, and Not have prototypes of the two badges struck?

I would love to hear the names of those few collectors and even more so the name of those "leading experts"? In my opinion there are absolutely no leading experts in this area. No one ever researched these badges properly and all there is on the internet is made up false hearsay and parroting.

Somebody, somewhere, somehow has the authority to know, that the prototype booklet is valid, but no prototype medal is valid??? Where the hell is the proof???

I guess that would be me as i have every period publication and more importantly period documentation, that has ever been written about the institution of these at the time. This information doesn't even reside (anymore) in the national archives.

As im not much on WAF anymore these days and someone just pointed me to this topic again, i'll give you a scoop (hell i don't even know if i typed it before, i remember a few topics on these over the years here on WAF and elsewhere with always the same dreams of people who want this badge to be real). The award was simply superseded by the Leistungsrune and the very shortlived qualification booklets and such that were made of the Dutch SS badge had to be stopped immediatly. The initiative was simply not approved from above (by order of Himmler himself who wanted the Leistungsrune).

I still wont reveal much more because if i do i have to tell more about the Leistungsrune of which everything that has ever been written by any author or on any forum is just not correct. Although the first "official" moment of the Leistungsrune was in 1944 i do can tell you these were for the first time inofficially handed out already in the summer/autumn of 1943 in the Netherlands to replace this intended Dutch SS badge. I have original photographic material of this moment and i dare you to try and find this information in ANY book or forum ever published. It just shows how less the collectorsworld knows about these badges.

If i may say so, you have a problem and it's illustrative of buying and trusting certain names blindly. You probably spent a small fortune on this badge at Gottlieb or Weitze who have sold these for ridiculous money in the past years. As a non dutchman you also don't know any wellknown collectorsknowledge on these and how the "variation" or "type" you show came on the market decades ago as fillers at dutch militariafairs. This is common knowledge over here and doesn't fool anyone but e.g American collectors are easy targets.

I realise it will be an evergoing discussion as long as i dont show the documentation (which i dont just throw on a forum), but the badge is not real and never will be, despite what some people want to (make you) believe, or how many times you will keep on bumping this topic.

As said im not much on waf anymore, it can be a while before i reply again. Drop me a pm or look me up on facebook, i can tell you the same in person via chat if you like, but im afraid the outcome wont be any different.

[jabnus]

I just look quickly through the rest of the topic and see you mention Ailsby. I made the mistake to befriend and trust that thief in the past, guess where and from whom he got that information? My reason for not being friends anymore is that he has never done a single letter of original research and only steals and preys on others like me for his books.

I helped him buy that booklet, but he still doesn't know any real information about these badges. Im glad i found all documents after letting him go out of my life. Best not trust anything from that thief.

Collecting, ain't it fun?

[FrenchVolunteer]

Hi,

Although the first "official" moment of the Leistungsrune was in 1944 i do can tell you these were for the first time inofficially handed out already in the summer/autumn of 1943 in the Netherlands to replace this intended Dutch SS badge.

+1
Amongst the proofs, the Prüfungsbuch for B(ronze) 122 awarded to a Dutch volunteer on September 15, 1943 in Avegoor was published in "Military Advisor" Volume 12, issue 2 (Spring 2001).

It should be noted that the "official" 1944 ceremonies in Avegoor, Hovelte and Kongsvinger, were just plain propaganda, and afterall foreign volunteers seemed to be only a fraction of all the awarded Waffen-SS soldiers, most of them beeing... Germans or Volksdeutschen.

See You

Vince

[Runic]

Jabnus, I totally agree with the points you made.
In fact, I am not an American fool for this award, as I bought it at auction for $60 US. Only because it is unique in that it has the “1” on the back.
That said, I hope you realize that I understand this badge has a history of falsification in the Netherlands post-war. I can also go into names, brothers of historical figures with access, and details.

That is why I posted the picture of my Belgian VNV Sports Badge - “ to redeem myself” - in other words, to make up for my mistake of saying a possible Dutch SS Sports prototype is real.

What I was saying is that here is an Original Sports Badge from the VNV, actually documented and real, and with a price and rarity much greater than the “Dutch SS Sports Badge”.

The Dutch SS Badge, ok, no there is no proof.

But the VNV Sports Badge I posted, was to make up for saying the Dutch Badge was real.

Cheers, Jabnus, this is the first time, I think, we have ever agreed on anything!!!
This proves that miracles are possible - though someone out there is sure to tell me I am wrong!!!
I hope the BE website I borrowed this from doesn’t take offense. Look at it while you can!
Coolest thing about this post is that it shows the VNV Sorts Badge “In Wear on Uniforms” during the period!
Outstanding website! - WWW.military.BE - Definitely Worth a visit!
Runic


Cheers Jabnus!

[jabnus]

Hi,

Im well aware of the site you mention and the VNV, that information is already a few years known, but i think you are comparing apples and oranges. The VNV sportsbadge is not related to the Belgian or dutch SS sportsbadge. In the Netherlands existed a sportsbadge in various classes too for the WA of the NSB (the WA = Weerafdeling -> loosely comparable to the SA of the NSDAP, with the NSB being the largest Dutch wartime collaboration party).

The badge this topic is about is a DUTCH SS sportsbadge, this was replaced by the Leistungsrune. It doesn't matter what other sportsbadges existed or how rare they were, those are two completely different things and only distract from the discussion.

I don't mean this as bad as it may sound and we might agree on more than we both might think, but you have to understand these awards and/or the groups or organisations they belonged too. This is already not easy for most Dutch and/or Belgian collectors who didn't invest time in this subject, let alone people from abroad who didn't look into this matter. Historicaly and collectionwise it is all very interestng, but it takes some time to place it all in the right context.

Best regards,
Gaston


ps: Funny fact, in the picture you posted the same man appears to be wearing the Dutch WA sportsbadge as well.

[Runic]

Ok Gaston,
Let’s compare apples and apples, and stay with the Dutch SS Sports Badge.
First, I agree there is no evidence (that I have seen) that this badge was produced during the war.
I have admitted that.
Let’s leave the VNV out of it, as irrelevant to the duscussion.
Let’s also, while we’re staying on subject, leave Christopher Ailsby out of the discussion. He has as much to do with this thread as the VNV Sports badge.
Your animosity toward Christopher is well known and has no relevance, and only distracts from the discussion. The topic of this discussion is the Dutch SS Sports Badge, not Christopher Ailsby.
Fair enough?
Ok, I’ll be Devils advocate.
Do you have proof that No prototypes for this badge were made during the war? Do you believe an award booklet was made? Are both impossible, even though the Dutch SS Newspaper gave detailed drawings and specifics for the award?
If many were produced post-war, does that prove no prototype was ever made?
Answer these questions. and we’ll go from there.

Runic

[Runic]

Gaston,
Thanks for meeting me half way.
My last post seems too me, on second reading, a bit argumentative.
So I am willing to keep this at the level of a civil discussion, if you are.

Please address the timeline that Vince brought up in this thread, posted in the military advisor, that seems to understand how the Leistugsrune took precedence over the Dutch SS Sports Badge due to timing. I know you have the facts on this Gaston.
Vince, if u want to jump in here, the more the merrier!
Cheers, Runic

[jabnus]

Hi,

Of course we keep it civil, no worries. An adult discussion between gentlemen is always welcome.

Can you tell me who those leading experts are?

Im hesitant to type more as more and more sidestories get drawn into the discussions, other foreign badges, prototypes, leading experts...it all has nothing to do with the fake badges themselves. Im sorry but im also just not ready to reveal what information i further have on the Leitungsrune, although i already mentioned that that was crucial in the Dutch SS sportsbadge being withdrawn.

It is hard for an "outsider" (read: non dutchman) to understand this award and how it came into being (that is: the plans for instituting it, but also the way it was quickly withdrawn). It would be the same as me trying to understand how a local Chinese, African or South American award was planned and withdrawn). Without giving the documents and their contents up: you have to understand how the war played out in the Netherlands, how relations between the german occupier, NSB and SS were. How they all intereacted throughout the war and (in this case) especially towards the end. Plans were made, political and/or military parties crashed into eachother, plans were changed. It all fits in the grander scheme of things. Thousands of books have been written on this subject and thousands more will be written, but for an outsider (read: non dutchman) this is hard to understand. E.g the NSB and the Dutch SS were literally and figuratively opposed to eachother and fought eachother with everything they had. Even over such things as a new award. In this situation, with a war on the background the Dutch SS sportsbadge was suddenly mentioned in the newspapers, qualification booklets even already printed (in very low numbers!), but when the idea became known to the German SS they immediatly interfered and forbid the award. Case closed. But foreign collectors in 2018 have no knowloedge about this, they only see a shiny badge with SS runes (and some even a lot of dollars!) and then the desire for a real badge starts growing and more and more totally irrelevant arguments are brought into the discussion. I dont mean this also as bad as this may sound, but that is what you are doing in this topic. You have no clue what this awards was SUPPOSED to be, but bring only "what ifs" to the table -> "leading experts told me", "prototypes", "others badges in other countries were also made", again im sorry but all those thoughts are not relevant.

With 100% certainty no Dutch SS awards were ever handed out, the tests and dates for qualification are impossibly for it to have ever been awarded. Before those would have ended the Leistungsrune was already handed out in 1943. The very short period of time in which the announcements for the Dutch SS award were made public, makes it also impossible for them to have had prototypes made. As said i have literally every letter ever written about them, nowhere is mentioned an order for badges. Very importantly too: the idea for the badges was drawn a few times, but never inconclusively. You can see that also in the drawings in the newspapers, booklet etcetera, there are always differences, some even upside down! The people involved in this discussion had not reached agreement yet on its design. If you know how other awards in the Netherlands (during the war) came into being, it is easy to understand that there simply were no badges made yet. The people involved simply had not come that point yet when they were stopped by the German SS. See it also as i wrote above here in the grander light of things. You have to understand how this all worked in the Netherlands. There were hardly any SS men even left in the Netherlands, as good as all Dutch SS men were at the various fronts, only a very small administrative part of the Dutch SS was still present in the Netherlands. Also in understanding you have to understand other wartime Dutch badges and medals, at this time there were no orders anymore to just make or order prototypes, it's quite complicated. Just wishing for prototypes because fake badges exist and people desire that their (well known if i may add!) badges are prototypes is nonsense.

By the way, i have many more pictures of all these postwar "types" people nowadays desire to be so called prototypes and of which they claim that they have the only example in their possession. If you lived over here and knew the collectorsscene you would know that it is a wellknown copy/phantasy "type" that was made in the 60s/70s as filler for collectors, thats it and nothing more.

Without giving more details this is all want to tell. There are no experts, there are no prototypes, there are only postwar made badges that were sold (and still sell todays!) for way too much money to peope who want everything SS but have more money than knowledge on what they buy.


best regards,
Gaston


Ps: re-reading the above for typos, i realise you may start mentioning the Eastlandcross/Mussertcross as an awards that was actually made at the end of the war and also without approval of the German occupier. Lets just not mention that and leave it for another topic, as it is unrelated and a totally different story that is not related to the SS anyway.