Dutch SS Sports Badge Details

[Runic]

Greeting all -
Most collectors and dealers believe the Dutch SS Sports Badge and Sports Honor badge as all post-war fictions, and not without valid reasons, since most of them are --

I offer, just for everyone's enjoyment, pictures of a badge I recently acquired.
So, in the interest of all the fakers out there making all the really ugly copies of this badge, this is what the 'real' fake should look like.
Please note the incredible details of the sig-runes -
Siggys.JPG

Get these details right! Don't settle for those blobby sig runes on the poorer fakes!!

Another important point - note the maker mark or serial number on the back of the sword. This is the REAL 'fake,' so if you want a convincing copy, get these details right!!!

back-close-up snip.JPG


And lastly, make sure that the badge looks like it is from the 1940's like mine - NOT the 1970s, if you want to make a sale.
All of this is written with tongue definitely in cheek. But I hope you enjoy the pics.

John

[Runic]

Note -

This is the ONLY badge I have ever seen with all of the details I have posted.
I could very well be the Original.

John

[Runic]

Lastly

I have seen many posts stating that all of the Dutch SS Sports Badges were originally created by an enterprising group of Dutch Collectors in the 1970s. Supposedly, they went to a jeweller or badge maker and had these created. All the badges we see after those are fakes copied from them.

The only known source for the look of this badge, (that I know of), comes from the 1941 Storm SS newspaper.


So, we must ask - did this group of 1970's Dutch collectors give this newspaper to the jeweller for him to create the post-war fakes? How else could they possibly been created???

That MUST have been the case, if the 1970s theory is true - since no other pictures of these exist.

But Get This - Here is a very interesting point most collectors never have realized----
Judging from the Storm SS diagram - the shape of the wreath of each badge - the regular sports badge and the honor badge - is DIFFERENT. The regular Sports badge has an egg shape - wide at the bottom, thinning out at the top- like an egg. The Honor Badge is smaller and has a much more even shape - the top and bottom are much closer to the same width.
Doubt it? Take a picture of one of these fakes and turn it upside down. The egg shape - large at the bottom, thin at the top, is obvious.

Did these Dutch collectors realize that the regular sports badge - the one without the sword - and the sports honor badge - the one with the sword -
had DIFFERENT SHAPED WREATHS? If you look at all the fakes out there - you see tons of the regular sports badge with sword added to them.

My idea is that - yes, some of the regular sports badges were awarded - or at the very least they were created and therefore they EXIST - probably a very few, and they all show the same traits -
and yes, some honor badges were awarded - but far, far fewer.

So, my advice to you guys with the sports badges without swords, with the characteristic striations indicating die striking - and the black solder - and - really important - finely detailed sig runes - hold on to them . Or sell them to me.
John

[magnusmilitaria]

Hello!

You have some other photos of this badge ? Full size front / back ?
Thanks
Mark

[Runic]

Pics

Mark,
I'll post the pics a little later as I am at the office, and it is easier to type than to upload pictures without getting my &$% chewed off.

I'll add that I have traded emails with a very knowledgeable Dutch collector who has reviewed the pictures of my badge and believes it to be the first strike - but still postwar.

He also informed me that another Dutch collector has found iron-clad proof in the Dutch National Archives that these badges were never produced during the war. This collector has a book coming out that will reveal these details.

I wish this author well, because I am sure many collectors will be interested in reading more on this fascinating subject. I for one will buy a copy of his book.

My feeling is that, judging by the sheer age details of my badge, and the crispness of the strike, and the "1" on the sword, that it cannot possibly have been created in the 1970s.

I promise the pictures are coming. And I will post extreme close-ups as well to show the age details. My feeling dates this badge in the 40s. Unless someone else can post an actual picture of one of these badges with a "1" on the back of the sword, (I have heard of one existing in the Netherlands but have never seen a picture), there is hope that this is a war-time first strike. Maybe never awarded, maybe never even commissioned - but created nonetheless by a Dutch badge maker.

Thanks for your reply, Mark.

John

[Runic]

Pics

Front and back -
Front - shape.JPG
back snip.JPG

[Runic]

more details

note shape of sword hilt - looks different than many I've seen
[ATTACH]2098008[/ATTACH]

Note the richer gold color where the sword's shadow fell over the years....
[ATTACH]2098009[/ATTACH]

[Runic]

More age close-ups - note strike details

more age details and crispness of strike.jpg


Better pic of the age - front

Front-age details.JPG

[Runic]

Wax substance?

Note also that the badge has traces of a wax-like substance in various areas - perhaps someone copied this at one time or other?

I hope these pics are enjoyable to some of you out there.

John

[magnusmilitaria]

Hi John!

Thanks for photos.
Looks like period badge to me. And rare. I like details.
Best Regards
Mark

[Runic]

Mark,
I appreciate you taking the time to actually examine these photos and giving your honest opinion.

I agree with you about both age and rarity. And the badge is even better in person- it is difficult not to notice the age and originality of it.

Thanks again Mark!

John

[jabnus]

Im sorry to have to say, this is another well known phantasy badge.

These badges were never made for real, only the 60's/70's copy's.

regards,
Gaston

[Runic]

Gaston,

Thanks for letting me know that these are only fantasy badges. And from the research I've done, about the only thing anyone can agee on with these is that they are post-war fakes or fantasy creations.

Gaston, since this is such a well-known fantasy badge, could you post some more pictures of some of the many well-known examples you've seen out there that are identical to mine, with the same finely-detailed sig-runes, and the "1" on the back of the sword?

I would appreciate it, and I'm sure that a lot of other collectors out there would benefit from your photos. That way, when they see a badge like the one I've posted pictures of, they won't be tempted to buy it as an original.

I think that if you will just post picures of only two or three of the many other well-known fantasy badges you've seen out there that are identical to mine, with the same sig-runes and the "1" on the back of the sword, that should be enough to prove to everyone once and for all that these badges cannot possibly be original, but are, as you say, only well-known fanatasy badges.

Thanks Gaston - I'm eagerly awating your photos, and I'm sure other collectors can't wait to see them as well.

John

[jabnus]

Dear John,

Later this year my book on NSB and Dutch SS awards and insignia will finally be published after a lot of delay. I cover the Dutch SS sportsbadge in the book in detail in a over 10 pages long chapter with the story of the idea of institution and reason for withdrawal of the award. Im very sorry to say that your badge is a well known copy in the Netherlands.

best regards,
Gaston

[Runic]

Gaston,
please don't be sorry to have to tell me that my badge is a well-known fantasy badge. I'm the one who should apologize to you.

When I read your first response, where you said that this is a well-known fantasy badge, but did not offer anything to back up your statement, I am sorry that I didn't realize that you are the author of the book I've heard about that I've actually been eagerly waitng to be able to buy and read.

Ever since a friend of yours let me know via email that you were writing a book on this subject, I have been excited about it and anxious to own it. I even mentioned the fact that such a book was being written earlier in this thread. I just didn't know that it was you, Gaston, who were the author. So, I apologize for assuming that you were just making a statement I have heard too many times, and I'm sorry for assuming that you, like the others, did not really have any evidence to support your comments.

So, I'm glad you are putting the information you've found into a book and sharing it with the rest of us. Because......
For a while I was doing my own research into this subject and I had found a lot of information in the U.S. National Archives that I believed would be worth examining as potentially having information proving the existence of this badge during WWII. I was compiling microfilm reference numbers to U.S. intelligence documents, U.S. Army documents, possible interviews/statements from Dutch/axis collaborators, captured German and Axis documents kept here in the U.S, as well as sources in Germany and England, and even declassified CIA documents that could possibly contain references, somewhere, proving the existence of these badges.

That is, IF these badges actually existed during the war. My hope was that, going through this HUGE amount of information, with all of the irrelevant material, and with all of the many dead ends I was sure to come across, that I would eventually find refereneces, somewhere, maybe, hopefully, that mentioned these badges and proved their existence - perhaps in a U.S. intelligence report on the state of Dutch collaboration during the war - perhaps in some long-forgotten treasure trove of captured documents from Avegoor - or perhaps from some random photograph of a Dutch SS man wearing one of the badges. Again - that is IF they actually existed during the war.

So I'm glad you wrote your book. If it proves what you say it proves, it saves me a lot of wasted time.

May I ask you a few quick questions about your book - I don't want you to give away any information that will be revealed when your book comes out and people buy it and read it - in other words I don't want to ruin any interesting surprises in the book for the reader. So I'll keep these questions very general.

Does your research tend to eliminate the possibility that any prototypes or manufacturer mock-ups of this badge could have been created during the war?

Do you cover what is known, as far as it is possible to know - about when it is estimated these fantasy badges started to be produced?

Lastly, does your chapter on this subject have any pictures of badges that resemble mine - I mean with the detailed sig-runes and the "1" on the back of the sword? If not, it's no big deal, but can you direct me to a source for such pictures that exist in the Netherlands? I haven't been able to find any.

Thanks Gaston, and...
Everyone reading this buy a copy of Gaston's book when it comes out!!!


John