R.K. = Karneth. Any solid evidence?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

Its from a Numbered General Assault Badge.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

@Norm

The Kreisel wound badge is known and unique because of it's 67 maker mark (if the known PKZ list is correct). Karneth used an unmarked standard wound badge design and can only be identidfied when it comes with the packet together.

@Tom

Interesting interpretation of that logo you made but if it really would be an RA than imo Kreisel and Karneth would be out because an RA as logo makes no sense for both of them.

Btw look closer at the logo and you will see the part of the K so it can't be an A.

[BassD]

i must checked my files when i am at home and will write something about my thoughts later

I must say that we have a lot of explanation but less facts.

So what are the facts?

1. i know from an old book about Gablonz that Karneth makes "Kriegsabzeichen" (war badges)
2. the ad from Kreisel prooves that they made awards
3. the ad is from Schwert und Spaten
4. nobody can tell me who made the connection R.K. = Karneth and why
4. nobody knows the shortcuts from Kreisel and Karneth
5. we didn't know all firms that produced badges during the war

Norm wrotes that he think that both badges he showed are from the same maker. But i am not sure. I am not a friend to make connections via the needle systmes. And the crimped round wire catches, similar materials and finish is for me not a special for Karneth, it was special for the kind of production in the Gablonz Area.

[Norm F]

...

Interesting interpretation of that logo you made but if it really would be an RA than imo Kreisel and Karneth would be out because an RA as logo makes no sense for both of them.

Btw look closer at the logo and you will see the part of the K so it can't be an A.

Hi Andreas,

I don't think Tom was suggesting the logo was "RA" but rather a clever combination to suggest "RAK" which would make sense for Rudolf A. Karneth. It's still not conclusive of course, but another interesting observation.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Norm,

interesting thought and if Karneth used RAK as logo it would lead us on the other hand that the single RK istn't Karneth.

[Thomas Durante]

@Tom

Interesting interpretation of that logo you made but if it really would be an RA than imo Kreisel and Karneth would be out because an RA as logo makes no sense for both of them.

Btw look closer at the logo and you will see the part of the K so it can't be an A.

Hi Andreas,

You misunderstood me, I was showing that there is also an "A" in the logo, along with R and K. Meaning that it could be a clever monogram for Rudolf A Karneth.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Tom,

as said that would lead us to the conclusion as mentioned above: R.K. isn't probably not Karneth.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Andreas,

You might be right, but in my opinion, both Karneth and Kreisel are equal candidates for RK. RK marked badges are clearly connected to "RK in Circle" badges based on the reverse hardware (look at RK LGABs and "RK in Circle" #GABS and PABs).

The fact that the 2 maker marks are different is interesting, and something we should keep in mind. But its not unheard of, just look at IMME badges for instance. They used several differnt maker marks (IMME, JMME, JMME & Sohn, etc.). So there is precedent for firms using different configurations of their company name in their marks.

Tom

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Tom,

could be and could be not ... and it still answers the question from which we started: who linked RK to Karneth ... i bet it was an "as said so" link because no one had Kreisel in mind and it's written off since ages again and again.

And as said above i would be careful with a reverse hardware link. It can't be a coincidence that none of the mention badges (GAB, IAB) came with a maker mark.

You mark you LGAB, flight clasps and navy awards but not the other onces? Sounds not logic to me .... except you share a standard production tool with different other makers.

[Norm F]

...So there is precedent for firms using different configurations of their company name in their marks.

Tom

And as already shown in the zinc minesweepers, RK (whoever he was) was clearly in the habit of frequently changing the font, punctuation and location of his maker mark even within the production of one badge type.

Best regards
---Norm

[Norm F]

Hi Tom,

... It can't be a coincidence that none of the mention badges (GAB, IAB) came with a maker mark.

You mark your LGAB, flight clasps and navy awards but not the other ones? Sounds not logic to me .... except you share a standard production tool with different other makers.

Hi Andreas,

You're absolutely right to question the Karneth assumption, but it's equally questionable to state that it's "probably not" Karneth. Like Tom says, thanks to you we now know two good candidates, neither of which is "probably not" RK.

As to the marking of only some badges within a production line, that seems to have been a pretty common practise especially when it comes to stamped LDO numbers. For marks that required engraving into a reverse die, perhaps the extra work and maintenance was sometimes deemed not worth the effort, especially for the most common badges. Certainly the minesweepers were the commonest KM badges but probably far less common than IABs and GABs, and even so the maker mark had to be continually re-worked so maybe they learned their lesson from that?

One can't know for sure, but I don't think you can claim for sure that unmarked badges cannot be made by the same maker who would use a mark on other badges in his production inventory.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

Hi Andreas,
One can't know for sure, but I don't think you can claim for sure that unmarked badges cannot be made by the same maker who would use a mark on other badges in his production inventory.

Hi Norm,

that's not the thing i said as conclusion - it's only a abnormality to think about.

Remember Steinhauer&Lück who bought their combat making dies from Wissmann. It's not a big surprise that not a single S&L marked PAB, GAB or IAB (beside the questionable one in Tucker's book) has been seen so far.

Imo we have with this IAB the same ... a design used by certain makers and not only one (whoever RK was).

[Norm F]

...
Imo we have with this IAB the same ... a design used by certain makers and not only one (whoever RK was).

I see what you mean (although I'd leave S&L out this discussion since we've belabored that discussion in the past ). To be honest I had forgotten about the unmarked badge that started this thread and got all wrapped up in the question of who was the maker of the RK-marked badges.

So there are two separate questions:
1) Were the unmarked IAB badges with that setup really made by RK? (on which opinions are divided), but more importantly
2) Who was RK? (for which there is no answer at present but two good known possibilities)

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

You mark you LGAB, flight clasps and navy awards but not the other onces? Sounds not logic to me

Hi Andreas,

Yes, I struggle with this question too. Doesn't make much logical sense to mark some awards, but not others. But as strange as this may sound, there is precedent for this too:

We can find early marked and unmarked Assmann Para badges. Same exact reverse hardware, rivetting and finish were used on both, so we know they were both made by Assmann

Same with early Deumer Para badges, some are marked and others not marked. Same exact reverse hardware, finish and rivets so we know they were made by Deumer.

Juncker is another one, all their early badges are marked, yet their later badges are almost never marked.

None of this is logical, but we know it happened for one reason or another.

Tom

[Graeme]

I also think that assuming RK in circle and RK marked badges are from the same maker is premature, although a lot of the arguments mentioned are very good.

There are definitely tantalising connections between the badges discussed including the RK numbered GAB.

My opinion on the numbered GAB logo is that it is definitely just "RK", but stylised differently so that the "R" runs nicely through the "K"

The series of markings we are looking at remind me of Wurster marked badges, small "w", big "W" and kvm in a circle...

I wonder if there was a phase when companies became artistic?

And I guess at this stage, although there may be a couple of candidates who could have made R.K. badges we do not know if it is either for sure..

regards
Graeme