R.K. = Karneth. Any solid evidence?

[Graeme]

Hi Andreas

Interesting comments you made.

I guess the first thing to clarify, is the evidence for Karneth. As far as I am concerned the IAB does have distinctive hardware, that was matched to a GAB. In Franks book, the GAB line was matched to the "R.K." marked PAB, mainly through the variant with the ball hinge hardware set up. Now these were fairly plausible connections in my opinion. And I am assuming that there was proof of some kind regarding the R.K. marked PAB and Karneth connection. Can someone remind me what that was please? I am guessing that there must be some IAB/GAB/PAB packets out there marked to Karneth?

It looks like R Kreisel possibly made badges, but what is your reasoning behind the RK in circle maker mark, seen on a few types of badges. Is it because we have two different types of "RK" maker mark and the likelyhood is that they do not belong to the same company.

Also, who do you think made the IAB in this thread?

Thats enough for now.

cheers
Graeme

[Andreas Klein]

I guess the first thing to clarify, is the evidence for Karneth. As far as I am concerned the IAB does have distinctive hardware, that was matched to a GAB. In Franks book, the GAB line was matched to the "R.K." marked PAB, mainly through the variant with the ball hinge hardware set up. Now these were fairly plausible connections in my opinion. And I am assuming that there was proof of some kind regarding the R.K. marked PAB and Karneth connection. Can someone remind me what that was please? I am guessing that there must be some IAB/GAB/PAB packets out there marked to Karneth?

Hi Graeme,

to what i know there has never been a Karneth combat packet (GAB, PAB, IAB) seen so far. The link to the GAB and IAB was made by the setup and finish of the R.K. marked PAB.

The only Karneth packets which are known are the ones to the wound badge which show an interesting info - the full company name of Karneth which was "Rudolf A. Karneth & Sohn". The same goes to official lettering. No one speaks there of "Rudolf Karneth".

Kreisel is always named as "R. Kreisel" and the wound badge packet also says "R. Kreisel".

[Andreas Klein]

It looks like R Kreisel possibly made badges,...

They made awards for sure. Here is an ad of Kreisel from 1941 saying that they are award makers.

[Andreas Klein]

... but what is your reasoning behind the RK in circle maker mark, seen on a few types of badges. Is it because we have two different types of "RK" maker mark and the likelyhood is that they do not belong to the same company.

Beside the likelyhood you mentioned it is a loud thought of the following:

Certain makers loved to use parts of their company name in their logo symbolized by real things. A few examples:

1.
A.D. Schwerdt used AS and a sword (Schwerdt) as logo.

2.
J. Hammer & Söhne used a hammer and an S as logo.

3.
Berg & Nolte used an N and a hill (Berg) as logo.

4.
Steinhauer & Lück used a hammer (...hauer) in the logo.

5.
Schmidhäussler used a blacksmith (Schmid) and a house (häussler) as logo.

Why not a circle for Kreisel because in german a circle is a "kreis".

[Andreas Klein]

Also, who do you think made the IAB in this thread?

Very good question ... the only maker marked GAB of this design is marked L/14.

[Andreas Klein]

Well, i can't say which maker made this IAB. Imo this a design was probably used by alot of different firms supplied by one and the same die maker like Wissmann.

Perhaps they came from the Gablonz area but with that number of badge makers located there it would be imo still "flimsy" to call all the bades R.K. made and it still didn't answer the question who R.K. was.

[Norm F]

Very good question ... the only maker marked GAB of this design is marked L/14.

Hi Andreas,

Well I think we can probably rule out Friedrich Orth, Vienna when looking at a badge with this setup, and that's a very crude L/14 mark with an oddly rotated '4' that is easily dismissed as spurious.

But the original question of who was "RK" is excellent, and I like your "circle" theory a lot.

This question is huge and I'm surprised more people haven't chipped in yet...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Andreas Klein]

... and that's a very crude L/14 mark with an oddly rotated '4' that is easily dismissed as spurious.

Hi Norm,

indeed we should rule it out for the main R.K. question. About the GAB:

The maker mark is the same one as it can be found on the rare tombak wound badge and the IC of Orth. The deep areas of the maker mark features the same finish as the rest of the badge - imo i have no doubt that the GAB holds a genuine Ort mark - for later discussions

[Graeme]

Well, i can't say which maker made this IAB. Imo this a design was probably used by alot of different firms supplied by one and the same die maker like Wissmann.

Perhaps they came from the Gablonz area but with that number of badge makers located there it would be imo still "flimsy" to call all the bades R.K. made and it still didn't answer the question who R.K. was.

The so called "RK" IABs and GABs are very numerous and both have many variations, which on reflection, probably points to more than one company being involved, who may or may not have shared hardware.

Interesting to note that whoever R.K. is did not mark the IABs and GABs that have been associated with the marked PABs. Quite often manufacturers that mark badges, do it across a range of badges, but we have never seen an R.K. marked IAB or GAB. However, I know this is not a steadfast rule.

Thanks for posting the extra info, Andreas, it is very interesting, and like Norm said, I like the Kreisel circle theory.

regards
Graeme

[Graeme]

Just summarising the main issues raised so far....

R.K. - There is a question about the connection to Rudolf Karneth. How was that connection made?

R.K in a circle - Could be the maker R.Kreisel.


It might be worth changing the title of this thread, so that it reaches a wider audience in order to see what info is out there. I have PM'd Edison for his permission to do so.

cheers
Graeme

[Norm F]

While the U-boat badges are marked RK in circle, the Minesweepers are just plain RK and occur with a variety of fonts. Nevertheless, I believe the RK minesweepers and the "RK in circle" U-boat to be by the same maker. You can see the similar production techniques for the two with the cast-in hinge blocks, crimped round wire catches, similar materials and finish and basic similarity in the RK fonts.

So I don't think one is Karneth and the other is Kreisel -- but both are by the same maker, whoever that is.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Likewise, the Kriegsmarine RK badges are by the same maker as the RK PAB, since you can see that some of the minesweeper variant RK fonts are the same as the PAB maker markings.

[Norm F]

...
The only Karneth packets which are known are the ones to the wound badge which show an interesting info - the full company name of Karneth which was "Rudolf A. Karneth & Sohn". The same goes to official lettering. No one speaks there of "Rudolf Karneth".

Kreisel is always named as "R. Kreisel" and the wound badge packet also says "R. Kreisel".

Hi Andreas,

Is it known what the Karneth and the Kreisel wound badges look like?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Why not a circle for Kreisel because in german a circle is a "kreis".

Hi guys,

Andreas, I like this theory ALOT, it is very plausible in my opinion. Good thinking

The only problem I see is that most of the badges marked RK do not have the circle around them (minesweeper, PAB, LGAB, LW Airgunner, etc.). I tend to agree with Norm that the badges with RK in the circle and just plain RK (no circle) were likely made by one and the same maker, so that would potentially rule out two different makers.

So whoever is behind the initials RK, they were inconsistent with their maker mark (some with circles and some without).

And the ones within the circle could go either way. Sure, it could be R. Kreisel like you suggest because Kreis means circle. But it could also be for Rudolf A Karneth.....because if you look closely you can also see an "A" in the maker mark:

Tom

[Norm F]

...
And the ones within the circle could go either way. Sure, it could be R. Kreisel like you suggest because Kreis means circle. But it could also be for Rudolf A Karneth.....because if you look closely you can also see an "A" in the maker mark:

Tom

Hi Tom,

That's an interesting mark in the circle. Forgive my ignorance...what badge is that from?

Best regards,
---Norm