Condor Legion tank badge in GOLD

[Norm F]

Hi Guys,

This thread won't be much use in the future without images.

So first here's the auction site description of the badge in question from the seller "vikkate":

"UNIQUE Condor Legion tank badge in GOLD, first issue (Spanish jewellers piece)
This item depicted in the images is a rare original German WW II "Condor Legion" tank badge. This badge was awarded to tank crews of the German Legion Condor division. A total of 415 badges were awarded in silver version and only one golden badge was awarded to Oberst v. Thoma. The Condor division was a German unit that half - secretly fought in the Spanish Civil War between 1936-1940. It tested many of the weapons later on used in the Blitzkrieg campaigns between 1939-1941. The badge is in excellent condition.
NOT COUNTING EDGE FLASHING ORIGINAL, BRONZE, gilded, STAMPED. THIS IS 100% ORIGINAL UNFINISHED STAMPED PLANCHET BRONZE MIRROR REVERSE. HAS BEEN HOLED FOR CUTTING OUT THE EYES & AROUND WREATH. NO PIN OR FINISH CUT OUT. THIS WAS PURCHASED IN THE 70'S FROM US VETERAN THAT WAS IN jeweller FACTORIES. THIS PIECE DOESN'T BEND AND NOT LIGHT WEIGHT. MOST COLLECTORS WILL NEVER OWN A REAL FIRST GERMAN WAR BADGE OF 1936. REPRODUCTIONS ARE CAST GRAY METAL, OR VERY THIN BENDABLE METAL. THIS IS THE ONLY I OWNED I KNOW IS REAL. GUARANTEED 100%. DON'T MISS OUT ON THE RAREST AND THE FIRST COMBAT BADGE OF GERMAN ARMY. The size in total is 51.6 x 63 mm (2.03 x 2.48 inches). The size of the badge itself is 48 x 60 mm (2.33 x 1.90 inches). The weight is 20.46 g.
More information (from wehrmacht-awards forum): "this is yet and still an unfinished planchet of a Legion Condor tank badge of which original examples have been linked to a war time manufacturer (WIEDMANN). Wiedmann has finally been given credit for it's manufacture after years of controversy. They have been linked to one another because of the type of pin and hinge that these are affixed with and the logo used by this firm on other badges of their manufacture (IAB's, PAB's and GAB's). This example has had the holes drilled in it for preparation of it's final hand finishing with a jewellers saw (once the outer flash has been sheared away). This type of badge is a recognized, original variation, of the LCTB and can be found in Angolia's book "For Fuhrer and Fatherland" (pg. 41), the M. Tucker book, "German Combat Badges of the Third Reich" (pg. 94-95), as well as the new book by Adrian Forman, "Bravery Courage and Valour" (pg. 88)".
REFERENCE: Detlev Niemann "Price Guide. Orders and decorations Germany" 2008, page 500, catalogue price is LP.
Known history of sales: UNKNOWN
Estimate price for that nice item is 30.000+. If you have any question just push link "ASK SELLER a QUESTION".
I am selling an old collection which was collecting more than 30 years by fellow veteran.
Original pictures.
For convenience winner from Europe we can offer send a payment to the bank account in Germany.
The winner has three days for inspect the item and can return it for any reason for money back."

And some of the images:

[Norm F]

I am assuming the S&L and Souval are 2 different dies, but I don't really see much of a difference between the two. Is there a way to tell them apart by just looking at the obverse design?

To answer Tom's question, the 1960's S&L design differs from the Souval in the details of the skull sutures and the S&L has a distinctive dent beside the nose that is absent from the Souval (there are other differences as well)

I don't think there's any mystery here. The "gold" planchet is pure S&L and a direct match to S&L's 1960's version. Here are a few closeups of the planchet from the auction site compared to a silver 1960's S&L. The silver 1960's badge even has the very same pilot hole drilled below the tank (in case anyone had any doubts. ).

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

Here's the badge that comparison was made from, (previously posted by Matthieu), with the circa 1968 "filled hollow hinge".

Notice these badges are finished after the trimming the process since it can be seen that the finish is applied to the edges as well. There's no reason the "gold" planchet should be gilded before trimming...

Best regards,
---Norm

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Norm,

Thanks for the info on the dent as a defining factor for S&L badges.

So where does this one fit in? Looks S&L to me, but no dent...

Thanks

Tom

[Leroy]

Hi Norm,

Thanks for the info on the dent as a defining factor for S&L badges.

So where does this one fit in? Looks S&L to me, but no dent...

Thanks

Tom

I think that's one I picked up a while back. It has the beginning drilled hole on the bottom right side of the tank.

I really more curious about this one, which does not match (after very close examination) exactly either Souval or S&L, has incredible detail and features different finishes front and back which I understand to be characteristic of Schickle and some other firms:

[Thomas Durante]

Gentry, is the first one I posted the same as the one you just posted, or is it also a different die than Souval & S&L?

Thanks

Tom

[Leroy]

Gentry, is the first one I posted the same as the one you just posted, or is it also a different die than Souval & S&L?

Thanks

Tom

Tom - No, the first one you posted is different from the from the one I just posted and is one I picked up several years ago. I have been under the impression (because of the hole below the tank) that it was an S&L (or a copy of an S&L). The second one is much more intriguing to me and, quality-wise, is heads and shoulders above all others I have see. - Best, Gentry

[Norm F]

Thanks for the info on the dent as a defining factor for S&L badges.

So where does this one fit in? Looks S&L to me, but no dent...

Hi Tom,

As Gentry said, the one you posted (which he owns) is not the S&L design. It's very close to the Souval design but with some small differences at the top of the wreath and a different reverse setup.

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

In contrast, the second one Gentry posted is more like the S&L to my eye (without the "nose dent"). Still some small die differences that perhaps could be explained by being sister dies? Could it be a wartime S&L? Has anyone ever seen that setup on a wartime badge?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Norm F]

For future reference, some comparison closeups showing the differences between Souval and S&L in the skull sutures and tank details.

[Norm F]

I went back and took at a look at postings of the generally accepted type with the "Wiedmann-like" setup which is really a misnomer since the hinge is different from the lily-pad hinges used by Wiedmann). That hinge has points on the bottom flange and was used on pre-war Stahlhelm badges along with various other badges and insignia later.

Anyway those LCTBs all seem to show better detail and thicker construction than the ones we've been discussing and yet bear a remarkable similarity to the S&L design.

[Norm F]

Two more of this type.

[Norm F]

Here are some comparisons to the 1960's S&L showing close homology. Perhaps the "Wiedmann-like" LCTBs are actually S&L's wartime version?

Best regards,
---Norm

[Legion Condor]

S&l 1960?

Two more of this type.

Hello everyone!

Norman,

as they come on the date of 1960 for the S & L piece?

Greeting Hans Günter

[Norm F]

[How did] they come on the date of 1960 for the S & L piece?

Greeting Hans Günter

Hi Hans Günter,

Not 1960 but in the 1960's -- more specifically, probably somewhere around 1968.

This is based upon years of discussion and accumulated experience in the 1957er community of collectors, and pertains to the badges of Steinhauer & Lück. There's a pretty good thread summarizing this here:
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...58#post6638158

This S&L LCTB combines a pin that was used in the early to mid-1960s with the semi-hollow hinge block that appeared somewhere around 1968. The actual date of production may vary but it was almost certainly sometime in the decade of the 1960s.

Best regards,
---Norm