Legion Condor Panzer Badge - Bender Photos

[jacques]

Hi
Another known pic showing this badge worn but no more explicit than the others..

[jacques]

And that one is too far

[Sal Williams]

Hi Brian, I certainly didnt intend to cause any more conflict with my questions. I was just curious about what was going on because it seemed to me that you all were trying to find out some very interesting and usefull information. At one point the cooperation seemed to get diverted but I think you all started on the same path which was to unravel this mystery. Im just looking forward to seeing your collective conclusions on this. Sorry again if I caused any tensions. Regards ,Sal

[Brian S]

No, you're fine. Now dig and find some period photos that will prove mine and Stump's badges are period pieces.

[W. C. Stump]

Don't worry about finding a photo to prove that my badge is a period badge. I know it is. Bryan has a problem with his so help him.

[Lorenzo Brown]

Don't worry about finding a photo to prove that my badge is a period badge. I know it is.

Mmmm...Perhaps so, Bill...Perhaps!

But a period photo of the badge in wear would certainly help prove the point for both badges.

[Prosper Keating]

What next? Blurry period photos of RKT in an attempt to prove that the S&L RK with flaws existed before May 1945? Or that we cannot be sure that what we accept today as genuine Juncker-made RK are in fact original? Where is this going?

The conclusion of this thread appears to be that known original 1939 pattern Legion Condor Tank Badges may not be original because we can't see them clearly enough in period photos to be sure.

Sorry, gents, but this is absurd. Even the clearest of photos cannot be used to determine originality with absolute certitude. Now, just because we cannot produce a period photo of forensic precision, badges like the one that belonged to Zündorf are not to be considered genuine?

This thread seems to have turned into an undermining exercise. I am sure that lots of owners of Legion Condor Tank Badges would love it if new evidence was found to support their hope that the badge they own was issued to or purchased before May 8 1945 by a former Condor tanker but the fact remains that there is no more than a handful - literally - of Lisbon-made badges known to survive and no more than a couple of dozen 1939 pattern German badges known to survive and that is probably an optimistic estimate.

The ones to have in a collection are those identical to Neumann's and Zündorf's. There is an intermediate type, the so-called 2nd pattern Lisbon badge, but I have studied these for years and remain unsure about what it looks like. I have my theories and tendencies but I'll keep those to myself for the time being.

As for the notion that the Zündorf badge and the identical one owned by Bill Stump are not 1939 German-issue badges because we cannot produce 20/20 studio photographs of them in wear before May 1945, well, what can I say?

Prosper Keating

[Lorenzo Brown]

Prosper. Nothing is suggested here that the LACK of a photo disproves its authenticity. Only that " .... a period photo of the badge in wear would certainly help prove the point...".

How can you deny that statement?

Obviously a CLEAR photo would be best.

[Brian S]

To: PK and WC

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

[W. C. Stump]

To: PK and WC

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

ME THINKS THAT WHEN A FLEA BITES DOG'S BACK THE OLD MUTT SCRATCHES.

[Frank Heukemes]

Could we agree that only posts with new pictures are still welcome to this thread and that THEN new discussion can follow? Everything else has been already said. Over and over again.

Cheers, Frank

[Prosper Keating]

Frank,

Good effort to get this back on track but Brian is suggesting that Zündorf's badge is a fake. This has not been said "over and over again". I am very interested in what has lead Brian to form this groundbreaking conclusion so I am inviting Brian to start up another thread as it does not fall within the remit of this thread.

To: PK and WC

Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

Brian,

Classic passive-aggressive tactics. I was wondering when you would drop your guard and say what's really on your mind. So you believe that Legion Condor Tank Badges of the type owned by myself, Bill Stump and Yuri are fakes.

I am the last person to accept blindly that something is original just because that is the 'accepted wisdom'. My 'history' here speaks for itself. However, your inferences that the Legion Condor Tank Badge I owned is not original puts me in mind of the sort of fellow at a militaria fair who appears, hovering on the edges of a group of people examining some piece and pronouces that the piece in question is not right but cannot answer any challenges to his view coherently. Another permutation of this habit is to pronounce that a known fake is genuine. It is indicative of what I call Demens Kimmelitis.

On the other hand, you could merely be indulging in sophism, a classical term meaning, essntially, baiting. Or 'trolling'. I agree with Frank. This thread ought to get back on track.

If you wish to discuss the originality of Legion Condor Tank Badges, by all means start up a thread with a link to my site, to the badge thereon, declaring your belief that it is a fake. But please give some tangible reasons for this so that we can have a meaningful discussion.

PK

[Brian S]

Brian,

Classic passive-aggressive tactics. I was wondering when you would drop your guard and say what's really on your mind. So you believe that Legion Condor Tank Badges of the type owned by myself, Bill Stump and Yuri are fakes.


PK

You were "waiting for me to let my guard down". Now what does that say about you PK.

Looking for a fight.






Maybe it's WC Stump that you owe all your venom to;

Quote:
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Originally Posted by W. C. Stump
The badges made for the Veteran's Association may be the Key that unlocks the post 1945 mystery of fake badges. Could it be that some of the veterans who had acquired a replacement badge passed them off as their original war time badge? It would be great to see one or more of the official Veterans Association's post war replacement badge.
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[W. C. Stump]

"ZAV" is a term not defined in any dictionary. It would gag a hillbilly maggot and vibrates in my mind like a bell clapper banging out sour chimes from a cracked brass bell. As per Yuri's, Prosper's and my former badges being questioned as not being original badges is irksome to me. I explained that I purchased another badge EXACTLY like the one posted on the other thread. It came DIRECT from a Condor Legion veteran. I am like Mark Anthony describing Brutus. "I am an honorable man." I am also a NON-VENOMIOUS man. Questioning my word to the extent of all but coming out and calling me a liar is not only irksome , but it is insulting. Prosper may be right when he said you are showing symptoms of "Demens Kimmelitis". You may just like to argue for the sake of arguing, but after a while the constant negativism get unbearable. All the "fuzzy woozy" cropped scans doesn't show anything that can be accepted as proof positive or shows anything that we didn't already know. It is my humble opinion that you are not going to find a photograph of the person showing the Condor Legion badge being worn where the badge will be zoomed in for someone to examine the badge. It just never happened. One has to draw the line and accept or reject the fact that these badges that can be directly tied to a recipient are original badges worn by that recipient. the best example is the Bartz badge. Yuri can verify that Bender acquired that badge from Bartz. The Badge was acquired from Bender by Don Frailey, who sent me the photographs. Both Roger Bender, Don Frailey and Yuri are honorable men. Therefore, I advise you to follow Robert Ripley's advise and BELIEVE IT OR NOT.

[Brian S]

Quote:
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Originally Posted by W. C. Stump
The badges made for the Veteran's Association may be the Key that unlocks the post 1945 mystery of fake badges. Could it be that some of the veterans who had acquired a replacement badge passed them off as their original war time badge? It would be great to see one or more of the official Veterans Association's post war replacement badge.
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And with that I unsubscribe to your feeble attempts to draw me into a fight and spoil the thread any more than it is.