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**skip** · 09-03-2003, 01:47 AM

Hi guys,

both look dandy to me as well but as Phil says bigger pics. are the only way to be certain.
I´m pretty sure that the AWS 42 would also look good on such small pics.

Skip

**Frank Heukemes** · 09-04-2003, 05:18 AM

I also agree, both look good and the RRS is a rare find! I am also missing this one in my collection.

Cheers, Frank

**Mike Kenny** · 09-04-2003, 05:48 AM

Hi,

Nothing jumps out as being wrong with either of the badges to me. Interesting size variation between the two makers (unless it's the images?). Has the Wernstein pin been replaced? It looks a bit sloppy at the hinge end - I guess I'm not used to seeing the shepherds hook pin fold on this maker's badges.

Regards
Mike K

PS: Actually, now I'm not so sure - allowing for a bit of misalignment from the vertical (ie the tank barrels at apparently different angles because of the way the badges are sitting) these two badges appear to share almost exactly the same obverse features - except their sizes appear to be different! Am I seeing things? Someone elso got a Wernstein and RSS for comparison??

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 06:41 AM

Hi Mike,

You are right the obverse design on these badges is identical, we just discussed this in this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=31814

It looks like at least the following known makers used the same obverse design with there company proper reverse setup

Wernstein
AWS
RSS
EWE
RS

I know of at least one other u.m. badge with the same design. It's the only PAB that I know of with broad pin.

Concerning the pin on the Wernstein, I also noticed that but when you look closely you will see that it just shifted a little to the left in its settting. A little part of the pin construction is visble outside the left side of the hinge.

KR
Philippe

**Mike Kenny** · 09-04-2003, 07:48 AM

Hi Philippe,

Point taken on the Wernstein pin, an unfortunate image angle for me.

As for the implications of this thread and the other one, I need a reality check here. So I am to understand that 1 (one) obverse die was somehow shared by a minimum of 5 separate companies, 3 of which were in different parts of Germany and 1 in Austria? But each had their own reverse die? I have seen some evidence of this sort of thing before, but never on this scale and normally by companies in geographical proximity. I'm also trying to be objective and not read anything into Souval being on that list, nor am I trying to dismiss any of the badges as repros.

Sorry, but there is NO WAY anyone is going to convince me that a mimimum of 5 different companies happened to come up with exactly the same die/tooling independentally in the 1940s - similar maybe, the same - no way. Same obverse characteristics = same die = zero tolerance rule in my book. What werer they doing, mailing the die to each other as required? Then you've got the apparent size variations between the Wernstein and RSS badges - unless Sven indicates that the image is somehow distorted? If the size variation is genuine and both badges are genuine, does that mean one company was creating master dies from casts of another company's badge(s)?? This theory has a lot of implications too (you cast something, you lose details so you need to refine/rework, which more than likely leeds to subtle differences in design).

I'm stretching my speculation here and could continue with even weirder ideas. I'd like to hear some other's thought's first though. I'd like to understand this a bit better, especially in the wartime setting, before I personally can accept it. What's been observed so far (good observations) hasn't had much thought go into yet imo, it's just been accepted (and I'm not trying to p anyone off by statong that).

Regards
Mike K

**skip** · 09-04-2003, 08:33 AM

Mike,

it would´nt suprise me if there was´nt one master engraver who engraved dies for all 5 companys. They would´nt have to send the dies to each other at all, they would just order a die from the master engraver and he would then send it to the company. It would´nt be very strange then that all are similar with just small differences due to the hand engraving.

Just a theory and not a fact.

Skip

**Frank Heukemes** · 09-04-2003, 09:27 AM

Same opinion here, we just noticed the obverse detaiks are VERY close if not absolutely the same for these makers.

Cheers, Frank

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 09:38 AM

Hi Mike,

I'm glad we finaly are going in to this.

I recently noticed the same thing with an IAB discussed in this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=31271

IMO L/21 and L/14 are IAB's by the same designer at least and you are correct not from the same identical die, but like stated in that thread and above by Skip, produced by a thrid party (company, artist, engraver....) that sold these designs to the companies that actualy produced the badges.

There is more evidence to be found that this probably was done. When I get home I'll post two other IAB's that are both u.m. share the same obverse but completly different reverse setups, one has the typical Juncker setup and the other uses a crimping technique.

KR
Philippe

**hcliffe** · 09-04-2003, 11:46 AM

I would agree with the "master engraver" theory. In fact, when I first started collecting, I found it surprising that the same badge by different makers had a unique obverse. Wound badges all look the same, why not PAB's etc.? Someone will probably jump on me now and show differences between wound badges by manufacturers....

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 12:19 PM

Hi guy's,

Here are the two IAB's. These picture I received from our member Roman. He first asked my opion on the IAB with the Juncker setup. After I told him that based upon the setup it could be Junckers but we probably would never know for sure untill we found a marked one, he send me the second IAB and since it had the same obverse asked if I agreed that that was also a Juncker.

Since we can be quit certain that the type of crimping was never used by Juncker, for me these IAB are one more proof for the fact that different manufactures used identical design that were most likely made by thrid parties.

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

ISA juncker hingecatch o.JPG (85.3 KB, 96 views)

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 12:20 PM

Obverse IAB 2

Attached Files

Juncker look a like o.jpg (64.6 KB, 96 views)

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 12:21 PM

Reverse IAB 1

Attached Files

ISA juncker hingecatch r.JPG (74.6 KB, 93 views)

**Philippe DB** · 09-04-2003, 12:22 PM

Reverse IAB 2

Attached Files

Juncker look a like r.jpg (50.2 KB, 96 views)

**Jan Arne S** · 09-04-2003, 01:03 PM

Hi Guys !
I have an RRS in Silver . I will post pics of it. I hope someone can put it together with an Wernstein . I dont have any software that is able to doing that . If not I can take a new scan with both in same scan , but then each PAB is going to be a bit small in an 700 x 750 pics .
Here is pics of my RRS in Silver .
I think theory with one master engraver could be a good one .

Jan Arne

Damn ! I have to resize , coming back soon .
Here is pics , Front

**Jan Arne S** · 09-04-2003, 01:12 PM

Back of RRS .
I have used some time to study and compare my RRS PAB . And I have to say that it has some similarities with the fake AWS 1942 .

Jan Arne

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