Unmarked Bronze PAB

[BadBob]

Can anyone identify this as the product of a specific maker? It is heavy and highly vaulted. - Thanks, Rob

[BadBob]

2.

[BadBob]

3.

[Chet Sowersby]

Rob, I like your badge. I have no idea who the maker is. It looks very much like a hollowback that was just discussed the day before yesterday on this forum. I have forgot who posted the picture but Phillipe showed his hollowback that was the same (just as mine). This looks the same to me. I hope our fellow members will give some imput here as I do not have the ability to post pictures.

Chet

[Philippe DB]

Hi Rob,

Very interesting PAB and I think Chet made a very good point in linking it the the hollow versions discused in this thread

http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=31486

I always wondered if there excisted massive versions of this beautifull hollow PAB, but untill now never found one. Based up on the pictures your badge also looks like a high quality construction and based upon the grass detailing I think I found two features that would lead me to conclude that this is indeed the massive version of the hollow PAB.

I'll post another picture of the hollow one in which I highlight two details in the grass area that are also visible on your badge. I think these details are so specific to these two badges that is is quit safe to assume the were made by the same company, alltough I havent got a clue to who that company could be.

KR
Philippe

[BadBob]

A couple of closeups. 1:

[BadBob]

2:

[Frank Heukemes]

Different badges, guys, even the grass.

Cheers, Frank

[Philippe DB]

Sorry to disagree with you Frank.

Of course they are different one is made of zink and the other of buntmetal, so probably they didn't use the same die. But from the details I highlighted I'm confident that these two badges were created by the same designer. Can you show us one other PAB that shares these 2 details I marked. And if you look carefully you will find other details in the grass area that match.

On the other hand I agree with you that it isn't a 100% perfect match, but taken in to account that the zink one probably was made from an other die and these dies were hand made isn't it normal to find little differences?

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

Dear Philippe,

My guess is that they should match at least 95% if they were from the same maker.
Check the massive and hollow PABs e.g. of these makers:

-Wurster
-Hymmen
-Frank & Reif

VERY much the same thing, right?

With the beautiful hollow badge you show and the massive bronze PAB BadBob shows there are just too many severe differences overall (e.g. eagle) to make me believe it is the same maker.

I agree though that some very general DESIGN features in the grass are similar. But check the whole grass thoroughly, also very much different.

Cheers, Frank

[Philippe DB]

Dear Frank,

I think you have a point but for myself I'm convinced that very little details certainly in the grass area of PAB's can be used to match badges. For me they are just like a kind of signature left by the craftsmen.

Because you mentioned F&R yourself as an example, I'll post a comparison of a hollow badge to the right and a massive one to the left.

Alltough the eagle is the big give away on these badges and we all agree that they are made by F&R, you will agree that the grass area for sure isn't a match. Look at the rock design and the inprint in the rock on these two badges. They are completly different.

The point I want to make is that these dies were hand made and that the guys who made them probably had some designer freedom. In on company maybe a very limited artistical freedom and in an other company may be some more.

But than again we probably will never know for sure.

KR
Philippe

[Frank Heukemes]

I understood what you were trying to say, Philippe. But on these Frank & Reif badges there is still a 95% match. On the two badges you compared, it is a 5% match.

Since you broke the ice, I will also tell you my theory regarding your beautiful silver hollow PAB. I own the very same one so I had some thoughts on it as well. I didn´t make them public so far, because it is just guessing without any proof:

Check your hollow silver badge against any Wurster PAB. You will find striking similarities in almost every area except for some grass details and other very minor differences. But the eagle and leaves and most of the tank are typically Wurster and identical.

Now consider that you always exclusively find Wurster hollow badges in bronze, never in silver. Also consider that you find your type hollow badge always in silver, never in bronze.

This led me to conclude your silver hollow badge might be Wurster´s silver hollow version, using a slightly different die.

But anyway, just a theory.

Cheers, Frank

[Philippe DB]

Hi Frank,

To underline your theory, here is a comparison of the hollow silver with a massive bronze Wurster.

In general I agree there are a lot of similarities and certainly the eagles look like the could be family. But what I miss when comparing them are those verry thiny little signatures. I couldn't find any, but since it's getting late I'll try again tomorrow.

[Philippe DB]

Sorry guys wrong picture (moderator please delete)

here is the good one

[Philippe DB]

Frank,

I know i'm a pain in the ass, but look at one other thiny, little signature.

The angled cut that i highlighted on the hull of the tank. This little detail isn't vissible on the massive Wurster I posted above.

As far as I know this is a feature that is only to be found on AS, RK, and even less vissible on AH PAB's.

Guess on who's PAB it is clearly vissible. Yes your right on the one Badbob posted.

And now i'm going to sleep

KR
Philippe