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**Jeff V** · 11-08-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by mmiller View Post

Good Morning Jeff,

I hear you. Yeh, well, over reacting is my style, and it usually gets me in trouble!

I wasn't sure whether you were alluding to other manufacturers making this badge. My error.

Regards,
Mark

Hi Mark, I know these LCTB can be quite contentious.

I should have been more clear in my post what my thoughts were.

best wishes,
jeff

**FHH** · 11-08-2006, 11:46 AM

Cltb

Interesting and insightful discussion on the CLTB

Philippe De Bock's comment on the badge was:

"I know that it’s good but as you could see on the forum, most collectors won’t touch

such a variant because it isn’t what they consider to be textbook."

Some of my stray thoughts include:

If it is tough to find another know original like it...can anyone find a known copy like it ??

It would seem the the logic of a high quality reproduction theoretically would drive a maker towards high enough production to make a profit....Nicht War ??

This one is super duper well done w/ all 3d Reich charachteristics. I've owned it since 1983 or 84. Got it from a very good and reliable source in Germany (where I lived) and have never seen another...Have any of you??

Makers of badges didnt necessarily know what the final requirement for numbers would be, so I'm not sure that any badge manufacturer would have NOT considered preparing to make thier version.

In 1939 how many TR combat badges were in production anyway?? Just the CLTB I think.

Just trying to flesh out some logic here and exchange thoughts about this interesting stuff.

Cheers, John

**Jeff V** · 11-08-2006, 12:09 PM

Hi John, I would like to make a couple of points.
It is unfortunate that Phillipe has left us, and he can not communicate his thoughts directly.
I would like to know that if he likes your badge so much would he be willing to pay the going market rate for it? We do not collect in a vacuum. The reason most collectors prefer textbook pieces is because when it is time to sell them they won't have to give them away.

As far as the thoughts that a piece is well made or no others has been seen which makes it original I think is faulty logic. Fakers don't always do things for a profit. With some of the high awards it is done as a one upsmanship to fool the collecting community.

I agree the LCTB you posted is a beautiful badge and had I bought it 25 years ago I would certainly hang onto it. Maybe new light will be shed someday confirming one way or another. best wishes,
jeff

**FHH** · 11-08-2006, 12:39 PM

Cltb

I would completely concur that high quality is not a stand-alone authenticating virtue.

But it is clear, that each separate strand of inductive logic has its own limits.

i.e. in the case of a badge type which few of us have much information about conclusions like:

A) "previously undocumented original type"

has the same number of factual limitations as:

B) "previously undocumented (therefore) non-original type".

Easy answers are often few and far between.

Best, John

(And yes Philippe has tendered an offer to buy the badge.)

**Jeff V** · 11-08-2006, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by FHH View Post

I would completely concur that high quality is not a stand-alone authenticating virtue.

But it is clear, that each separate strand of inductive logic has its own limits.

i.e. in the case of a badge type which few of us have much information about conclusions like:

A) "previously undocumented original type"

has the same number of factual limitations as:

B) "previously undocumented (therefore) non-original type".

Easy answers are often few and far between.

Best, John

(And yes Philippe has tendered an offer to buy the badge.)

Hi John, "Easy answers are often few and far between"
Well said!
As collectors we have to all make decisions with what we are comfortable with. If Philippe is happy with this badge enough to purchase it, good for both of you. best wishes,
jeff

**mmiller** · 11-08-2006, 06:10 PM

Over the past 7 years here on the Forum, when a new type of badge is offered, and presented to be original, the 'burden of proof' typically lies with the presenter. If I offered a new 100PAB that matched no others ever seen before, or a new style Oakleaves never seen before, the replies and resistance to accept, without substantial iron-clad proof and validation would be earthshattering. I see no difference here, other than the CLTB is more of a mystique, and less well understood. To me, the same rules apply in this case. No more, no less. For my $3000+, I'll take the safe course of action... Wernstein. I throw a low of respect to the knowlegable experts I named in a previous thread, who spent hours debating this topic. They invested hours into their research and findings. It's not just my opinion here.

You ask the rhetorical question, 'why would a faker make just one badge'? I could ask, why would a 3R company make just one badge? We can go on and on..... I am happy for the new owner. Sorry he has chosen to depart.

Regards,
Mark

**andrewb** · 11-08-2006, 06:18 PM

It might have been a stupid question coming from a new Assoc. member but I was hoping someone would reply to my Q #102.
A simple yes or no please.
There is one for sale at I.S.WRIGHT auction house in Australia as described. Asking price: A$3000.

**Jeff V** · 11-08-2006, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by andrewb View Post

It might have been a stupid question coming from a new Assoc. member but I was hoping someone would reply to my Q #102.
A simple yes or no please.
There is one for sale at I.S.WRIGHT auction house in Australia as described. Asking price: A$3000.

Not to my knowledge.
jeff

**andrewb** · 11-08-2006, 09:54 PM

Thanks Jeff for your reply.
Regards,
Andrew.

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