Interested in tackling the GB numbered PAB's?

[Bob Hritz]

Robert,

With all the members here, we couldn't get even a dozen examples of the type-2. What I see on every auction site and website are the currently produced castings such as Frank posted. I rarely saw them for sale, back when I attended a lot of shows. I would like to have them all sent to one person to weigh, measure, and compare all the details to see if there is a pattern, or if each badge is individually distinct. If each badge is individually distinct from the others, there is the evidence these are not mass produced, but the product of a clever forger. All-in-all, I still think there are far-far fewer of the type-2 we are examining than the hundreds or thousands of the currently produced cast pieces that are everywhere.

Bob Hritz

[robert60446]

With all the members here, we couldn't get even a dozen examples of the type-2.

Bob,
But we also identified Type 3, 4 and "mutant". Going back to the type 2, i can bet that there are more of them in collections of our own forum members. I guess they just never got a chance to read this thread.

[Anthony]

Dear Philippe/Robert,

Could you please summarize here all the infomation that has been gained through out this thread, sort of a list of what is what, it would probably be a good list to go by.

Regards,

Anthony H

[robert60446]

Dear Philippe/Robert,

Could you please summarize here all the infomation that has been gained through out this thread, sort of a list of what is what, it would probably be a good list to go by.

Regards,

Anthony H

Dear Anthony,
I will leave the honor to Philippe, it was his thread.

[Bob Hritz]

Anthony, it will be a VERY short list.

Bob Hritz

[Anthony]

I just made my own short list, very short indeed, ONE

Regards,

Anthony H

[robert60446]

I just made my own short list, very short indeed, ONE

Yep, Only type I GB PAB's are good post#2 and post#22 (different hinge, but the same catch and with the same pin marks).
Type I



Type I - different hinge, but the same pin marks and catch:

[Larry Lipps]

Guys, I've watched this thread with interest and believe it represents a lot of good research. I have to agree with Bob that it's difficult to draw a difinitive conclusions with a sampling of a dozen badges. We've all seen the S&L RK pendulum swing back and forth and the current outcome has surprised even the researcher. As a result of all these swings, I don't think the market for even Type I S&L's will ever completely recover. I would hate to see the same thing happen to other pieces of militaria based on only a few examples. For me, this thread has certainly been an eye opener, but I'm not willing to call the case completely closed yet.

[Philippe DB]

but I'm not willing to call the case completely closed yet.

Hi Larry,

Well I guess in this weird hobby of ours there always will be room for speculation.

However in this case and unless you are willing to accept that the "no rivet" type were the first of the numbered GB PAB's, I can't see how any, other besides the type I variant, could be accepted here.

Taken in to account the number of these badges in collections and with more then 3000 hits by now, why is it that we don't get to see more GB's.

If I had a bullet proof GB in my collection, different from type I, and even without being a member of this forum, I would have found a way by now to get it in here and make my point.

The fact that this doesn't happen tells a lot IMO.

KR
Philippe

[Jeff V]

Please examine this pic of the acorn detail on the bronze badge with no rivets that the Ruptured Duck has for sale. Thanks to Gary Wilkins for taking this picture for me. This should close the case. Only the type 1 G.B. numbered tank badge is original.
jeff

[Philippe DB]

Hi Jeff,

Txs, also to Gary, for getting us a good picture of the accorns on the "no rivet" type.

You even can see a bit of possible "die wear" on the lower one but nothing that serious that it would have called for any re-working of the die. The other visible detailing on this part of the badge is as crisp at what you see on any other Type I.

KR
Philippe

[robert60446]

Thanks Jeff and thanks Gary for this extra picture.

Game Over!

[Don D.]

Since I no longer have a dog in this fight I am going to provide some insight into the manufacturering process. Thiese badges are die cast which meand that molten metal is injected into the "die" but it is actually acting more as a mold. The die doen't put its impression into the metal. The metal fills into the impressions on the die. There are lots of variables here, metal composition, temperature, and pressure come to mind right off the bat. Injection molds typically are not stand alone dies but consist of several dies connected by a central channel that the metal is injected into. You see crappy versions of these on ebay all the time but the auto indusr=try still uses them to make parts. They are usually laid out in linear fashion with a central channel and molds off to the left and right. The molds farthest from the point of injection will recieve the metal at a cooler temperature than the ones closest to the point of injection (physics 101) and at a lower pressure. Metals have an optimum temperature for this type of work, too hot and you can burn out essential elements in the composition. Too cold and it doesn't flow properly. See where I'm going with this? That is why there is a science called metallurgy.
What does all this mean? In my mind it means (at least for wreaths) that there were either 2, 4, 6, 8 or more molds (dies) on one large injection die connected by a central channel. The likelihood that they were all exactly the same is slim to none when you look at how we magnify them. The ones farthest from the point of injection would be the hardest to ensure proper pressure and temp. You might have the proof right inthis thread if you care to open your minds and look. You have a wreath that has both checkering and dotted acorns. How is that possible? Did they go and apply checkering by hand? or did they file some down to dots? Maybe, just maybe this is a natural occurrance from the process when the metal reached past the midway point of the channel (tree) and cooled. This could also explains the different levels of detail in the oaks near the number box.

Hopefully someone more familiar with the die-casting process can chime in here because I am basing this off of 4 years of metal shop, documentaries, and internet research.

Any metallurgists feel free to chime in too.

I'm out of here.

[Don D.]

from the internet

Die-Casting

Die Casting is the process of forcing molten metal under high pressure into steel molds. The molds are called dies. Dies range in complexity to produce anything from sink faucets to engine blocks. This level of versatility has made die casting the among the highest volume products made in the metalworking industry. As an example, every automobile includes 220--300 lbs of die castings.
There are four major steps in the die casting process. First, the mold is sprayed with lubricant and closed. The lubricant both helps control the temperature of the die and it also assists in the removal of the casting. Molten metal is then injected into the die under high pressure. Typical pressure is around 100 megapascals. The metal is atomized as it enters the cavity encouraging good fill characteristics. Once the cavity is filled then the pressure is maintained until the casting has become solid. Finally, the die is opened and the casting is ejected.
Before the cycle can be started the die must be installed and brought to operating temperature. This set-up requires 1-2 hours after which a cycle can take anywhere between a few seconds to a few minutes depending on the size of the casting. Maximum mass limits for magnesium, zinc, and aluminium parts are roughly 4.5 kg, 18 kg, and 45 kg, respectively. A typical die set will last 500,000 shots during its lifetime. A shot occurs every time the die is filled with metal. Shots are different from castings because there can be multiple cavities in a die, yielding multiple castings per shot.
The die must fulfill four primary purposes. First, it must hold molten metal in the shape of the final casting. The die must also provide a path for the molten metal to reach the casting cavity. Third, the die is designed to remove heat from the casting. Finally, a die must be able to eject the solidified casting.
Die Casting machines are rated by how much clamping force they can apply. Normal sizes range from 400 to 4000 tons. Along with size there are two main categories that die casting machines fall into. They are hot chamber and cold chamber machines.

• 

In a hot chamber machine the metal is pumped into the die directly from a furnace of molten metal. Cold chamber systems transfer molten metal from the furnace to a shot cylinder. The metal is then pushed through from the cylinder into the die.

[Philippe DB]

Hi Don,

Thanks for the insight, very informative.

However just 2 points for consideration:

1. How are we going to proof that a multiple injection mold was used here?

2. Much more important and crucial in this discussion if they came out of one multiple mold (2/4/6/8 badges what ever) they might show a little variation but why don't they feature the exact same hardware? I know, hardware changed but in this case we were able to follow the exact same hardware down to the last of the numbered GB's, the "no rivet" badges.

KR
Philippe