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**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 06:49 AM

Hi Stan,

That might very well be correct but makers didn't have a dozen dies pumping out the same badges. And this is, apart from type 1, what we were able to see on these GB's so far. No two badges are identical.

This is what this thread is all about what are we willing to acept 1,2 ...10......25 variants. If everybody agrees that 25 is no problem, because h******233; you know it was the end of the war, then that fine with me but I'm not willing to buy this.

Only this WE Frank told me about a COA he read, roughly stated it came down to this:

"Please note that no guarentees can be given concerning the materials used to produce this badge. These are late war badges and at that moment even empty toothpaste tubes were used to produce them "

Well if as a collector your happy to have this on your COA, then there is probably no limit to what you are willing to accept as original.

That being said I have not given up on your badge, but its hard to work with what I can see, hence my above question for another compare.

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-04-2006, 07:10 AM

Originally posted by Stan

Please remember that the quality control of badges manufactured in the last years of the war was not too strict and I have seen several examples of badges being awarded which had imperfections.

Furthermore, as has been already stated, manufacturers had more that one die.

Hi Stan,
First, big thanks for helping in this thread.
Now, I may sound like a broken CD player, but so far I have seen only one type of GB made PAB's with provenance (at least few examples). All of them were Type I.
Multiple dies, quality control problems, a lot of room for mistakes because of the complicated manufacturing method - it all sounds good, but this sword got two blades, these are also always standard excuses used by fakers to confuse and explain differences between original and fake badges.
I will take a bullet here. So far for me today, this game is very simple - only Type I is real and any other Types are fakes. This is my and only my personal opinion. I'm not forcing anyone to believe in this. If anyone would like to spend +$1000 for other types of GB PAB’s – that’s fine with me. This is your money and your choice…
But forget this; I'm willing to "convert" if anyone with badge other then Type I will tell me with hand on his heart that his badge is straight from the German vet. In other words with provenance...so far this didn't happen. Taking in to the account how many these badges is around I’m finding this very odd that only Type I badges could be linked to veterans...

**Stan** · 07-04-2006, 07:11 AM

Panzer Assault 50 GB

Phillipe,

Just compared my badge to posts 97-102. The cross hatching on the acorns on my piece is not as deeply cut as yours, only very lightly marked which is why at first glance I thought they were dots. The two front eagles claws (talons) on my badge are identical to yours but the back talons of mine are much better defined.

I am now away until 18.00.

Regards,

Stan

**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 07:14 AM

Dear Robert,

So that there is no misunderstanding. I don't share your viewpoint and I'm convinced that there are originals apart from type I.

Talking about provenance I know of 2 (TWO) badges that seem to come with provenance. You are correct both are type I but TWO examples is hardly a representative sample wouldn't you agree?

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-04-2006, 07:20 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Dear Robert,

So that there is no misunderstanding. I don't share your viewpoint and I'm convinced that there are originals apart from type I.

Dear Phil,
That's Ok with me. As i said: "This is my and only my personal opinion."...

**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 07:27 AM

Originally posted by Stan

Phillipe,

Just compared my badge to posts 97-102. The cross hatching on the acorns on my piece is not as deeply cut as yours, only very lightly marked which is why at first glance I thought they were dots. The two front eagles claws (talons) on my badge are identical to yours but the back talons of mine are much better defined.

I am now away until 18.00.

Regards,

Stan

Thanks Stan.

I know what I wrote earlier being convinced that your badge was identical to my bronze one.

However I have been busy looking at these badges since last Thursday, My eyes hurt an my head is about to explode. I was so busy looking at details (accorns because there for me the clue was hidden) that I lost side of the brother picture. Even after you posted your measurements, that looked good, I was sure they we incorrect since you mentioned yourself that you didn't feel confident about the tool you were using , and didn't pay much attention.

I again went over your pics and all of a sudden I noticed the double rim, for sure a feature that my bronze 50 doesn't feature. So I went back to my 25 and in comparing that one to yours found similarities in finish, ageing pattern, eagle expression and hardware. Even the corrosion on your pin matches what I see on mine.

That 25 also features a mixtures of dots, crosshatching, and very shallow detail (maybe as a result from die wear,material used, dirt, mal maintenance of the dies..........who knows)

So if you tell me now that you see a match apart from the dept of the impression ( perfectly acceptable) I have a feeling that we might be getting somewhere and that we might be looking at the original GB II variant.

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-04-2006, 08:09 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

So if you tell me now that you see a match apart from the dept of the impression ( perfectly acceptable) I have a feeling that we might be getting somewhere and that we might be looking at the original GB II variant.

Dear Phil,
Apart from the pin similarities it is hard to tell from hardware point of view that yours and Stan’s PAB’s are the same. Catch plate is for sure different and it is hard to tell anything about hinge from Stan’s badge (looks similar but is it exactly the same?). But even if we are accept that these 2 badges are the same, how you are linking them to the Type I Phil?

Ps. on this picture Phil's badge is first frome left.

**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 08:22 AM

Dear Robert,

Well don't focus on hardware, if anything changed constantly it was reverse hardware.

As soon as I get home I'll compare Stan's measurements with mine.

How do I link them to type I, depends on what we are willing to proof/accept, two dies or evolution. Both are an option at this moment.

Another way to link them would be the hardware. Type I fairly consistent comes with a more "rectangular hinge". Type 2 features an oval hinge.

Skips 50 a clear type I features an "oval hinge", if that hinge is a perfect match we have a link.

KR
Philippe

**robert60446** · 07-04-2006, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Skips 50 a clear type I features an "oval hinge", if that hinge is a perfect match we have a link.

Yes i agree with this in 100%. However everything is now in Skip's hands and depends on his photographic skills. We have to see at least equally good as yours hinge pictures to make this link. Then if it is a match, I will accept Type II as real. If it is a match...

**Don D.** · 07-04-2006, 08:35 AM

Why not just send them all off to Detlev for a COA? I'm sure he has handled more than any of us.

**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by ddoering

Why not just send them all off to Detlev for a COA? I'm sure he has handled more than any of us.

Hi Don,

Well I never mentioned this because to me it is not relevant in what we're trying to do. A badge has to be able to do his own talking but for the COA collectors, probably following this thread but not participating, my 25 has one from Herr Niemann.

Does this chance the way in which anybody looks at it, I can only hope that it doesn't.

KR
Philippe

**Jeff V** · 07-04-2006, 10:24 AM

My type 1 also has a COA from Detlev. I feel this has no meaning what so ever. To my knowledge Detlev has never does an exhaustive study of the GB numbered tank badge. His COA is just an opinion same as many people on here. best wishes,
jeff

**Jeff V** · 07-04-2006, 10:31 AM

In comparing the pics of type one badges with the variants the finish patterns are different. I would expect that if GB changed their die or modified their die or hardware the finishing process would stay the same. best wishes,
jeff

**Philippe DB** · 07-04-2006, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by Stan

I have measured my badge to the best of my ability using a non-scientific vernier. Measurements are as follows:-

Height = 61mm
Width = 45.5mm
Width incl tank = 47.3mm
Weight 25.1g

Stan

As promised the measurements of my 25

Height = 62,03
Width = 45,13
Width + Panzer = 47,08
Weight = 23,3

Apart from the height and taken in to account the extensive handfiling on these badges,very close.

Any more badges out there that match the above and combine dots and crosshatching?

KR
Philippe

**Don D.** · 07-04-2006, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by J. VanHofwegen

In comparing the pics of type one badges with the variants the finish patterns are different. I would expect that if GB changed their die or modified their die or hardware the finishing process would stay the same. best wishes,
jeff

Why would this be so? Are you saying that all the badge makers followed the same procedure throughout the war?

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