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**DavidB** · 04-15-2006, 02:33 PM

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**DavidB** · 04-15-2006, 02:35 PM

back 2

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**Philippe DB** · 04-15-2006, 02:41 PM

Hi David,

Looks rather promissing. The backplate crimps are a bit deep and I'm not familiar with that painted backplate but otherwise it looks ok.

KR
Philippe

**upbeek** · 04-15-2006, 02:43 PM

im sorry but it looks fake,i think they are made by flock

**DavidB** · 04-15-2006, 02:47 PM

Thanks for the fast reply Phil.

I agree,the backplate is a bit weird.
I will try and take some better pics of it the next time I have it in my hands.

Any other opinions?

-David

**upbeek** · 04-15-2006, 02:52 PM

ignore my last pm ,i have examined closer the known fll fake and it is a little differeent to the one you have posted,so it may be a good one,
tom will know for sure,
regards chay

**skip** · 04-15-2006, 02:54 PM

All looks exactly as it should do to me.
Nice, and quiet hard to find, first pattern Spange.

Skip

**Thomas Durante** · 04-15-2006, 03:41 PM

Hi David,

Would want some better pics for sure, but I like what I see so far. The clasp is a good FLL, first pattern, but possibly refinished. Like Philippe said, the backplate is an odd color, looks just like the silver finish, a really bad sign of refinishing. Typically, with FLLs, you will find a brownish plate with the bronze class, and black for silver and the gold class.

Another oddity is the use of a fluted pin and the thick flatwire catch. On first pattern clasps (which yours seems to be), you will see a round wire, thin catch. And almost exclusively on both patterns, you will find a flat, banjo style pin.

My guess is a good FLL in the transition period between the first and second pattern clasps, but most likely refinished.

Tom D.

**Philippe DB** · 04-15-2006, 04:54 PM

Hi Tom,

When you find he time could you please explain to me how you reached the conclusion that the Crimped FFL precedes the one with the solderered set-up?

KR
Philippe

**DavidB** · 04-15-2006, 05:23 PM

Thanks for all the help guys!
I really appreciate it.

It's not my badge though,but I will try and get some close ups of it as soon as possible!

Best regards,
David

**Thomas Durante** · 04-15-2006, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by Philippe DB

Hi Tom,

When you find he time could you please explain to me how you reached the conclusion that the Crimped FFL precedes the one with the solderered set-up?

KR
Philippe

Hi Philippe,

For everyone's benifit, I will post the reverse of both patterns to aid in the discussion.

The biggest piece of evidence I see is the die flaw found on the grenade handle. There are only a handfull of FLLs around with this die flaw, but they all appear on the so called second pattern clasps. On all the sc first patterns I have or have handled, I have never found one with this die flaw nor evidence of it having been filed off. Since FLL used the exact same obverse die on both patterns, this die flaw provides a convenient time line.

Other points are that generally, first pattern clasps crisper detail. On the first pattern, the reverse setup with its crimped in hinge and catch are much cleaner and more efficient (early war), compared to the extremely sloppy soldering of these found on the second pattern (later war).

Also, First pattern clasps are also found with a thin wire catch which is pretty flimsy. I believe that when the switched over to the second pattern, then upgraded to the stronger, more robust flatwire catch we often refer to as the typical "FLL catch". IMO they would not have gone from the stronger catch to the flimsier catch, it just doesn't make sense.

FLLs are probably the most common CCC, besides AGMuK, so I think we have seen quite a few to make a judgement call. Pieces like the one that started this thread are interesting because it shows that there was some overlap in the 1st vs. 2nd patterns, and that we haven't seen everything yet. But from the evidence collected so far, I feel confident in the timeline.

Tom D.

First Pattern - Reverse

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FLL - 1.jpg (52.7 KB, 275 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 04-15-2006, 05:57 PM

First Pattern - Catch

Fp - C

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FLL - 1 catch.jpg (50.0 KB, 273 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 04-15-2006, 05:57 PM

Second Pattern - Reverse

Sp - R

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FLL - 2.jpg (54.7 KB, 273 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 04-15-2006, 05:58 PM

Second Pattern - Catch

Sp-c

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FLL - 2 catch.jpg (44.4 KB, 273 views)

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