Originally posted by tdurante
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Great point Tom. Thanks for sharing.
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Tom,
You just solved a problem for me, and I could hug you! I have an FLL Flak for my book - just gorgeous textbook. But I recently bought what I thought was a round-wire S&L from bad pics, but when it came the wreath and eagle are perfect FLL and match the measurements to a T. Looking at the 1st pattern catch they are dear-ringers! Thanks!
MarcComment
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Hi guys,
Here is a picture of the die flaw, which is just starting on this example. This one is from Frank H. Mikael Gidhagen has another example where the die flaw is very large, hopefully he will see this thread and post it.
Marc, glad my info could help you in your endeavor. I wasn't aware that S&L had a flak badge. Maybe in another thread, but when you get a second, can you post some pics of one? I'm working on the S&L section of the CCC book right now and would like to compare hinges and catches, etc.
Thanks
Tom D.If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Tom,
The S&L Flak's are the most diverse with the most variant setups. I am still working on getting them together, but I will post what I have when I get a chance. Thye are all unmarked. One thing Frank told me that is finally settling into my addled brain is that one MUST take a holistic aproach to war badges. I am doing Luft Flak, but I really need to look at how all the badges by a maker were done.
MarcComment
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Hey Marc,
Same here. Only after looking at Frank's book, I was able to make a connection between S&L and one of the unmarked CCCs. Since then I have been collecting more evidence that points to S&L for this CCC. Like you say with the S&L Flaks, S&L CCCs had the most variant setups. Most of the CCCs in my book have 2 or at the most 3 setups. My S&L section has 6 different setups and 6 separate "Types" that I will document.
Like the flak, all the S&L CCCs are unmarked, but I will have a very convincing section in the book that points to S&L. Possibly a cross reference with your flak badges will help both of us
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Thanks
Tom D.If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Sounds good. And you know i will draw comparrisons with the FLL CCCs!
MarcComment
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Hi Tom,
Txs for the elaboration. I admit that it makes sense but at the same time it seems to contradict my firm believe that the technique of crimping in hardware was a late war thing developed with only one purpose: making the production process more efficient by eliminating the time consuming manual soldering process.
Proof of such an evolution can be found on quite a few combat badges and is something we also witness on the FLL IAB were the soldered on hardware clearly precedes the crimping technique. A crimping technique that was lateron abandoned in favor of the hollow kriegsmetal production.
We also know of a few examples where the crimping technique failed (e.g oval crimp PAB, unknown maker type 4 (1.21.5) GAB. However these badges have in common that the unfunctional crimps are still clearly visible on the badges which proofs that nobody found it necessary to even make a new reverse die. Why bother investing in a new reverse die when the system was about to collapse.
I don't have enough reference material on the FLL CCC but based upon your research isn't it possible that also on the crimped FLL the crimping technique failed and they had to swith to soldering on the hardware again. Only be looking at the crude way in wich the hardware is soldered on my two FLL's it looks like it might be a possibility that the excessive use of solder might have served the purpose to cover up the former cimp holes.
If this could have been the case than for me at least everything would fall back in to perspective.
KR
PhilippeComment
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Hi Philippe,
I've got a couple comparisons, so please bare with me and don't post until you see the pilot badge comparison
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In looking at all my FLLs, I can see no evidence the old crimping holes on the 2nd pattern clasps. I don't think you would anyway since they used 2 different reverse die. Compare the placement of the FLL logo in relation to the bottom of the clasp on poth patterns I showed earlier. The 1st pattern FLL logo is closer to the backplate than the 2nd pattern logo. I don't think they could have just changed the position of the logo if it was part of the reverse die, they would have had to create a new one, and therefore no signs of the old crimping style would show up.
I am not that up to speed on FLL IABs and PABs as I am with the CCCs, but I will try to make some comparisons from a few quick searches I did this morning on the forum.
Your contention is that FLL IABs switched from a hollow buntmetall, to crimped in zink for ease of production, but then switched again toward the end of the war back to hollow zink with soldered on hinge and catch, correct? Keep in mind that CCC production would not have started until 1943 or so, probably right in the middle of the "crimping in" phase of FLL's productions. The idea that FLL switched from their midwar "crimping-in" phase back to their late war "soldering-on" phase is in line with my thoughts on the CCC. Check out the IAB comparisons I found this morning, the first one is a mid-war "crimped-in" version and the second one is the later-war soldered-on version. On the mid war one you can see the round wire catch, consistant with 1st pattern FLL CCCs. On the late war one, you can see that they were using up the left over stock of crimped in catches. All this equals "Crimped in version first, then soldered on version second".
First, the mid war FLL IABLast edited by tdurante; 04-16-2006, 08:59 AM.If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Late war FLL IABsIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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OK, now for the PABs,
These PABs are clearly made after 1943 because of the date stamp on the reverse. The use of this type of catch on their solid zink PABs shows that FLL used this catch late in the war. There is no evidence of crimping in as far as I can see. You can see that on the earlier hollow FLL PABs, they used the thin roundwire catch, similar to the 1st pattern FLL CCC's. My guess is that they realized that the thin wire was too flimsy for a combat badge and they switched over to their stockier, robust flatwire catch on their later war 43 PABs and their 2nd pattern CCCs.
Earlier, FLL PABLast edited by tdurante; 04-16-2006, 09:02 AM.If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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earlier war, hollow FLL PAB - ReverseIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Late war 43 FLL PABsIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Finally, I have a comparison with the unknown Pilot Badges, commonly thought of to be made by FLL.
The first pics are of 2 earlier buntmetal Pilot badges by FLL. You can see the use of the thinner round wire catch. The last pic is a clearly, later war zink FLL Pilot badge with the typical, robust flatwire catch. This too is consistant with my nomenclature on the CCCs.
Early FLL PilotIf it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Another Early FLL Pilot (Observer)If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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Lastly, the latewar zink FLL Pilot
Notice the difference in the hand finishing of the wingtips from the earlier quality, individual cuts to the later-war unimaginative and bland saw cuts.
OK Philippe, I'm done .
Tom D.If it doesn't have a hinge and catch, I'm not interested......well, maybe a littleNew Book - The German Close Combat Clasp of World War II
[/SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]Available Now - tmdurante@gmail.com
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