Rocky mystery – one step closer to the end…

[Den]

What about this one I found, same swas fillup but no flaw on the wings.

Den

[greg.hays]

Den, that one now has me absolutely confused........my head is spinning .

Tom, and Robert this is a great thread, I am not grasping it yet but keep up the great investigative work.......I am going to reread this to see if I can get a handle on it.

[robert60446]

What about this one I found, same swas fillup but no flaw on the wings.

Den

Well, could you please post some reverse pictures?

[Den]

the reverse

[Den]

and also one of the front

[greg.hays]

Is Den's badge a Rocky or just a flat back PAB. I have one identical in bronze that has the same excess material between the wing and the swaz.

[greg.hays]

reverse..........doesn't look Rocky

[robert60446]

Is Den's badge a Rocky or just a flat back PAB. I have one identical in bronze that has the same excess material between the wing and the swaz.

Guys,
Posted by Den and Greg badges are Flat Backs......but not Rocky PAB's...

[robert60446]

Guys, to make it easier, please check this picture from below. The name “Rocky” is from this small mountain like shape visible on this badge reverse. I call this type of the “Rocky” PAB’s - “Hybrid” because of his flat back. Please note that because of this “Rocky” shape and “saw marks”, “Hybrid Rocky” is not a classic “Flat back” PAB.

BTW, guys, could you please check all the small, big “dish” and flat back PAB’s in your collections, for existence of that known from RS obverse die flaw?

[Greg]

Hi Robert,

Neither of my "classic flatbacks" nor my "large dish" have the crescent-shaped die flaw on the wing, though my large dish (shown) and one of the flatbacks has fill-in material between the swastika and wing.

Best,
Greg

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Just some more thoughts.

Robert, in looking at the reverse pics of your Rocky Hybid, you can see some weird die flaws, like cracks in the die were starting to appear. This would/could be the reason for RS to swith their reverse die and in doing so, decided to add their maker mark.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, the CCC I posted earlier in this thread is the only perfectly flat CCC. All other makers have a slight curve to their CCCs. This coupled with the fact that this CCC was the only known CCC to have evidence of saw cuts make it a good possibility that the Rocky Hybrid and the Semi-circular crimp CCC were made by the same firm. Two pretty unique features IMO.

I am confident that the semi-circular crimp CCC was not made by Souval, despite sharing the same overse. Hopefully, the following comparison will show the differences better, containing the RS clasp, semi-circular punch, and the 6-Dot crimp. They all share the same obverse die, but their construction, finish, crimping, zink type, hand finishing, are all different. Not pointing toward production year variation, but different makers entirely..................IMO.

Tom D.

[Thomas Durante]

r

[robert60446]

I am confident that the semi-circular crimp CCC was not made by Souval, despite sharing the same obverse. They all share the same obverse die, but their construction, finish, crimping, zink type, hand finishing, are all different. Not pointing toward production year variation, but different makers entirely..................IMO.

Hi Tom,
This is what bugs me down. In this situation I believe in one “Mother die” theory – one company was “copying” dies from made by them master die to everyone who was looking for cheap and fast made die. Probably this wasn’t even badge manufacturing company but maybe some big die maker (who knows). But why in the hell they were buying only obverse dies? Why badges with the same obverse look have different reverse dies? I’m talking here about PAB’s, IAB’s, GAB’s, CCC’s and etc.

[Thomas Durante]

Hi Robert,

I agree with you 100%, a master die company selling obverse dies to different companys makes a bunch of sense to me.

As far as why only obverse dies, I think it would be so much easier to make a reverse die than an obverse die. Think about it, to make an obverse die, you would most likely have to hire an artist, follow the pattern exactly, go through all the time consuming steps to make an actual scale stamping die, etc.., which costs quite a bit of money. On the other hand, the reverse die didn't need to meet any type of specification or scrutiny, it was therefore a lot easier to make, plus each company would want to make sure their reverse was taylored to include their maker mark (or not ) and also to be taylored to their individual shop setup (soldering vs. crimping in of the hinge and catch. Different tools would be needed for each of these setups).

Tom D.

[robert60446]

As far as why only obverse dies, I think it would be so much easier to make a reverse die than an obverse die. Think about it, to make an obverse die, you would most likely have to hire an artist, follow the pattern exactly, go through all the time consuming steps to make an actual scale stamping die, etc.., which costs quite a bit of money. On the other hand, the reverse die didn't need to meet any type of specification or scrutiny, it was therefore a lot easier to make, plus each company would want to make sure their reverse was taylored to include their maker mark (or not ) and also to be taylored to their individual shop setup (soldering vs. crimping in of the hinge and catch. Different tools would be needed for each of these setups).

This makes sense Tom...
BTW, Phil was suggesting the same explanation.