Rocky mystery – one step closer to the end…

[Philippe DB]

Well just checked all my pics of "Rocky" PAB's. Couldn't find that flaw one one of them

So what does this mean, the Rocky in fact is the earlier RS and the flaw developed arround the same time they started marking those badges

KR
Philippe

[robert60446]

So what does this mean, the Rocky in fact is the earlier RS and the flaw developed arround the same time they started marking those badges

Dear Phil,
I guess so. There is still mystery of the “reverse” die. Probably something terrible happened to the reverse die as well or they just decided to change it in order to have "RS" logo on it...I don’t know. We can only speculate at this point.
Anyhow IMO very surprising and interesting “turnaround” in this “Rocky” case…

[Don D.]

Before we go cementing the link I think you need to ask yourselves a question about the hybrid Rocky. Look at the areas to the left and right of the swaz. There is a die flaw on both sides as exhibited by the gap being filled in. This is caused by the ridge on the die breaking away (chipping) at some point which leaves a gap which is then filled with metal during the badge production. (I've circled what I'm talking about in yellow) Why isn't this feature on MMed RS badges if they came later?

[Don D.]

angular mm RS eagle. same die flaw on wing, nothing in the swaz.

[Don D.]

Silver wide pin, same as above. Perhaps RS sold a worn die to the mom and pop rocky pab company and it deteriorated over time.

[Don D.]

or RS stamped out the Rocky for another company and that company finished the badge. Here is my other silver wide pin and it has the die flaw on the wing and in the left part of the swaz.....

[robert60446]

Very good points Don....
I just wish we could see more Rocky's (hybrid versions) here...It would be interesting to learn did Rocky’s always got these “filled gaps”…

[Don D.]

These filled in gaps are a fairly common occurance. That little ridge had to be a weak point in the die. The big question should be do any of the other Trabbi design makers have the same die flaw on the wing?

[Thomas Durante]

Hi guys,

Don makes a great point about the different die flaws that show up on the Rocky, but don't show up on the RS. That would screw up your timeline of the Rocky being made first, then modified to include the RS marking. I also notice that the Rocky seems to have a crisper die strike than the RS clasp, which would not make sense that RS used the die for a while and then sold it to the "Rocky" firm.

IMO, it makes more sense that 2 different firms produced these badges. Why would RS create a die without their name in the first place? Its possible, but is it likely? They seemed to have had a proclivity to marking their awards. As far as I know, there are not unmarked Souval GABs or IABs, is there?

We have 2 PABs coming out of the same obverse die, but that is where I see the similarity ending. You have 2 similar PABs with:
Different catches
Different hinges
Different reverses
Flat back (Rocky) vs. concave reverse (RS)
Hand finishing on 1, not on the other
Similar finishes, but not necessarily the same

I don't want to keep harping on the CCC connection, but I really think it is relevant. By the rational that 2 badges coming out of the same exact obverse die were made by the same firm, then we would have 3 very different CCCs that were made by Souval. My CCC thread shows the typical RS marked CCC with the same obverse die flaw as 2 other unmarked clasps. After studying these unmarked clasps, they are so different in construction, materials used, and finish that it is impossible they were all made by Souval. The differences are much more apparent in the CCCs than they are with these 2 PABs.

I also think this ties in perfectly with a collaboration of Vienna makers, which has been supported in the PAB & GAB worlds and soon in the CCC world.

Tom D.

[robert60446]

That little ridge had to be a weak point in the die. The big question should be do any of the other Trabbi design makers have the same die flaw on the wing?

I got 2 more Rocky PAB's and none of them is featuring known from RS die flaw. However I’m dividing Rocky PAB's on: "normal" and "hybrid".
Normal - saw marks and slightly scooped
Hybrid - saw marks and flat
So my other 2 Rocky PAB’s are just “normal” variants (saw marks and slightly scooped). I don’t have any more Hybrid versions in my collection.

I was asking about these filled spots on other Rocky Hybrid PAB’s (with RS die flaw), because maybe the example without them exist somewhere...

[robert60446]

Don makes a great point about the different die flaws that show up on the Rocky, but don't show up on the RS. That would screw up your timeline of the Rocky being made first, then modified to include the RS marking.

Tom,
not necessarily, the problem is I don't have any more Rocky Hybrid versions to "draw" the final conclusion. IMO at this point we shouldn't exclude possibility of existence of the Rocky free from any “problems” with areas around swastika arms...

[Thomas Durante]

Tom,
not necessarily, the problem is I don't have any more Rocky Hybrid versions to "draw" the final conclusion. IMO at this point we shouldn't exclude possibility of existence of the Rocky free from any “problems” with areas around swastika arms...

Hi Robert,

I see your point. I guess the only way to prove or disprove either way would be to find a marked RS without the die flaw.

Or finding another "Wernstein" design, with the die flaw, marked by another maker.

What do you think about the differences in the reverse setup? Is the one shown on the Rocky a known variant of RS (sharp, flimsier, sheetmetal hinge rather than the typical rounded sheetmetal hinge). Are there any Rockys that have pins, hinges and catches that match RS marked PABs?

Tom D.

[robert60446]

What do you think about the differences in the reverse setup? Is the one shown on the Rocky a known variant of RS (sharp, flimsier, sheetmetal hinge rather than the typical rounded sheetmetal hinge). Are there any Rockys that have pins, hinges and catches that match RS marked PABs?

Tom,
Philippe got the nice collection of Rocky PAB's pictures. I guess when he will have a time he can check them out and tell us his conclusion. I have one picture of the Rocky PAB on my files with setup known from RS PAB's. But it is scooped version of the Rocky - not flat.

[VonLuger]

yes reverse set ups would be intersting to compare also

[Dennis P]

Robert:

I think these threads bring out a lot of useful information. All of these pieces help form plausible theorys (for now) on who produced some of these currently unknown badges.

I think Don's ideas had merit, and I'm glad Tom is hammering away at the CCCs.

Regrettable that your badge is the only Hybrid Rocky we have to go by so far.

I'm currently up to my neck in the sea of wound badge variations and their setups. If nothing else this research brings continual stimulation to the hobby.

Keep up the good work.

Dennis