Repaired die for FLL 43 PAB’s and more…

[robert60446]

Hi Guys,
The main reason for this thread is to explore our knowledge about badges die flaws and die repairs. Very often when seeing some hair thin lines on the badges we are using excuses of repaired die (image#1). But is this really a true statement? Can the hair thick line on the badge could be result of the die repair? In my opinion it is highly impossible. <o>
</o>

[robert60446]

The real die repair could be for example found on these 2 FLL badges posted below by me (image#2 and #3). You can clearly see extra material under commander copula (detail#1) and the tank turret (detail #2). This is what I would classify as the real die repair signs.

FLL, image#2

[robert60446]

FLL, image#3

[robert60446]

FLL (detail#1)

[robert60446]

FLL (detail#2)

[robert60446]

Please remember that dies were made from very strong hard material and for their repair you couldn’t just use “crazy glue”. Only the highly qualified (skilled) welder could perform delicate operation of the die repair. Taking in to the account what kind of tools these guys were using back then, then the hair thick line doesn’t look like from the die repair to me anymore. In my opinion these hair lines are from scratches left on the dies after the manufacturing process or some minor accidents with the material inside the dies. We know that production process wasn’t perfect. In many cases badges were badly damaged, material was misplaced, press stroke wasn’t set correct and so on. All these small events could lead to “scratches” on the die, not serious enough to transfer die from the production line to the maintenance repair but deep enough to be visible on the final product. However when the die developed serious cracks, then die was repaired, by welding broken (or cracked) pieces together, but this would always leave very visible marks (just like those from FLL’s).
I would love to hear your opinions about this and maybe we can see some other examples of the die repairs or die scratches. This thread is not limited to the PAB’s only; the IAB’s guys are welcome to participate as well!

[Don D.]

The first pic is of a scratch to the surface of the die. The others show where part of the die broke away leaving a space (void) where metal could flow. While they look major when blown up they are not. Look at where this occurs, ridges and thin angles. Remember, to understand this you have to see the die as a reverse of the badge.
Don

[robert60446]

The first pic is of a scratch to the surface of the die. The others show where part of the die broke away leaving a space (void) where metal could flow. While they look major when blown up they are not. Look at where this occurs, ridges and thin angles. Remember, to understand this you have to see the die as a reverse of the badge.
Don

This is exactly what I’m talking about. These "hair lines" are not from die repairs, but from the minor surface scratches. These were not important enough for die transfer to repair shop; however they are visible on the badges. Don is pointing out one more very important thing. The die weakest points are on the ridges and thin angles. This is the location where the FLL die was broken for example...

[Don D.]

And I can't really see how they would repair these either. Dies are hardened steel and you could never add metal to one and expect it to hold up under pressure.
I only had 3 years of metal shop so this is just my opinion. I'm sure if you were working with softer metals you might be able to effect a repair but I'm not sure in this case.
Don

[robert60446]

And I can't really see how they would repair these either. Dies are hardened steel and you could never add metal to one and expect it to hold up under pressure.
I only had 3 years of metal shop so this is just my opinion. I'm sure if you were working with softer metals you might be able to effect a repair but I'm not sure in this case.
Don

Don,
The only way how you can repair the die is by welding. Taking in to the account how small the badge dies was, we are talking here about really highly skilled repair workers...

[johnrtse]

My FLL

Interesting discussion!

Here are a couple pics of my FLL43 PAB, which appears to have been stamped from the repaired die also. Please excuse the quality of my pics.

Obverse:

[johnrtse]

Reverse:

[johnrtse]

Detail of "repaired" area, using a magnifying glass:

[robert60446]

Interesting discussion!

Here are a couple pics of my FLL43 PAB, which appears to have been stamped from the repaired die also. Please excuse the quality of my pics.

Obverse:

Hi John,
yes you are absolutely correct. Your badge was made from the same repaired die. What is interesting, the hollow version of the FLL PAB doesn’t have that problem. So it is possible that FLL was really using 2 sets of dies…Can someone please post pictures of the hollow FLL PAB’s here?

[Don D.]

That die was not repaired. If it was that metal on the die would not be missing, ergo, the excess metal on the badge would not be there.
Don