Repaired die for FLL 43 PAB’s and more…

[robert60446]

That die was not repaired. If it was that metal on the die would not be missing, ergo, the excess metal on the badge would not be there.
Don

I don't understand your logic Don here. The die was repaired and what you can see here is example of it. If the die lost pieces their probably only welded the open cracks together. Please refer to my drawing on it. Because of the die size, repair wasn’t perfect. Extra material was build up in the repaired areas IMO…

[Don D.]

Robert, if they had added metal to the die then the result would be a concave flaw, ie the extra metal added to the die would not permit metal from the badge to occupy the same space. The badge is a mirror image of the die so if the badge features are convex, the die features must be concave.
Don

[Don D.]

Get some playdough and push a badge into it then remove it. That is what the die would look like. Use your FLL and see what you get.
Don

[robert60446]

Robert, if they had added metal to the die then the result would be a concave flaw, ie the extra metal added to the die would not permit metal from the badge to occupy the same space. The badge is a mirror image of the die so if the badge features are convex, the die features must be concave.
Don

Don,
here is what happened in my opinion. The piece of die get loose, the crack developed in the area. The repair crew only welded the crack together leaving larger opening untouched because there was nothing what they could really do about it. Extra material on the badge is consequence of this. Material was filling the opening but has been stopped by the welded area at the bottom of the lost piece. In other word, the welders covered the crack only, but never add any material to replace the missing die piece...

[Don D.]

There have been several dies shown on this forum and they have all been 1 1/2"-2" thick. I doubt that they cracked. A more likely scenario is that the delicate ridges and other features have a habit of breaking off under pressure.
JMHO
Don

ps. try the playdough thing, you will see.

[robert60446]

There have been several dies shown on this forum and they have all been 1 1/2"-2" thick. I doubt that they cracked. A more likely scenario is that the delicate ridges and other features have a habit of breaking off under pressure.

Don,
that even sounds better, because the missing piece would provide an extra opening for the material build up on the badge. So maybe after all they don’t even bother to repair the die as long as die was functional…

[Graeme]

Hi Guys

No expert here by any means. Robert and Don, I have nominated you two guys to work for the united nations because you both started off from different points but came to an agreed solution that seems very plausible. It would be a first for the United Nations.

For me the welding, is just a bit heavy handed for delicately detailed pieces.

I agree that the thin lines you see ( as in Ak's recent porsche IAB thread ) are not repairs or real flaws, probably fine lines hard to see by the naked eye caused by the initial tooling.

Something else to bear in mind, is the situation where debris gets left in the die and is not fully swept away. This will cause a change to the obverse also and there must be examples out there.

Good thread by the way..

regards

Graeme

[robert60446]

For me the welding, is just a bit heavy handed for delicately detailed pieces.

Hi Graeme,
I hope this will bring some light...:
The TIG or GTAW, process was invented by the welding department at Northrop Aircraft Company in 1939-1941. This new process was called "Heliarc" as it used an electric arc to melt the base material and helium to shield the molten puddle from the surrounding air.
Micro TIG welding is almost identical to conventional TIG, except it uses magnification and optics to aid in applying a precise weld (Micro TIG is capable of laying down a weld as small as 0.0127 cm). It requires lower amperage to perform the weld than conventional TIG, which is potentially less damaging to the base metal. As its name implies, micro TIG is more precise than conventional TIG welding, making it ideal for smaller repair or assembly work.

Please remember that i have no proof that Germans were using this technique...

[Philippe DB]

Hi Guys,

Well I'm far from an expert when it comes to production techniques but using my peasant logic, Don's explanation makes the most sense to me.

I hope you all agree that the FLL in question would qualify as a "die forged" badge. So we have a heavy male die stamping in to heated metal. If the die would have been damaged or worn out in certain areas it couldn't preform its duty like it was suposed to, as such leaving metal in place that normaly should have been stamped. This results in the surplus material that we see on the FLL's and other badges.

KR
Philippe

[robert60446]

I doubt that they cracked.

Don,
After all I believe that maybe cracks did happened on these dies. Please check this Daisy PAB and her right track. This small build up of material would suggest in my opinion that die in this place was damaged. The amount of the extra material is too much for the simple scratch…

[Philippe DB]

Hi Robert,

Again using my same simple logic your explanation for the Daisy dieflaw makes sense to me. If there would have been a thiny crack then again the die would leave room for material to escape in to crack rather then being stamped away resulting in the flaw you show.

KR
Philippe

[robert60446]

Well I'm far from an expert when it comes to production techniques but using my peasant logic, Don's explanation makes the most sense to me.

I hope you all agree that the FLL in question would qualify as a "die forged" badge. So we have a heavy male die stamping in to heated metal. If the die would have been damaged or worn out in certain areas it couldn't preform its duty like it was suposed to, as such leaving metal in place that normaly should have been stamped. This results in the surplus material that we see on the FLL's and other badges.

Dear Philippe,
Yes, you are correct the die forging was the method used for formation of massive badges.

[Don D.]

Robert, your Daisy probably shows a hairline crack which is logical due to the location, near the edge of the die which would be a weaker point than the other parts you showed. It the worker mounted the die improperly in the press or used the incorrect setting this could occur and logic says it would happen towards the edge. The die would be strongest towards the center and weaker the farther out from there you get. Notice that the "crack" follows the outline of the badge which tells me the die was not level when it recieved the pressure that cracked it. Had it been level the pressure would have been distibuted evenly across the face of the badge, causing no damage.
Don

[Philippe DB]

Robert, your Daisy probably shows a hairline crack which is logical due to the location, near the edge of the die which would be a weaker point than the other parts you showed. It the worker mounted the die improperly in the press or used the incorrect setting this could occur and logic says it would happen towards the edge. The die would be strongest towards the center and weaker the farther out from there you get. Notice that the "crack" follows the outline of the badge which tells me the die was not level when it recieved the pressure that cracked it. Had it been level the pressure would have been distibuted evenly across the face of the badge, causing no damage.
Don

Hi Don,

Not sure I can follow the above are you saying that this crack would be only visible on badges that were made on presses with incorrect settings?

I would like to think that once the crack was there al badges made from this moment one would show this flaw.

KR
Philippe

[Don D.]

No Philippe. The crack was created by incorrect procedures but once formed it was there to stay. It probably wasn't even noticable to the naked eye. It would only open under extreme pressure. and yes, every badge made thereafter would have the flaw.
Don