Deschler made PAB & GAB's

[robert60446]

Tool marks are like fingerprints. If they match exactly they came from the same tool, if they don't then they came from different, though simular tools. Robert, can you use your powers to do a side by side (or top to bottom) comparision? GAB, PAB and SchuCo please.
thnks
Don

Don,
here is quick mix of 3 hinges...
L/10 PAB is first from left, then IAB L/10 and SchuCo.

[Hans N]

The marks on the L/10 and the SH.u.Co hinges are, to me atleast, a perfect match. The L/10 IAB seems to have both the narrower hinge than the SH.u.Co IAB´s and the L/10 PAB`s posted here and a different markpattern.

It would be very interesting to see some KM badge hinges (and other types of badges) that has the same type as well.

I have no problems what so ever about the L/10 marked Flatback PAB, to me the badge is genuine and so is the mm as well. It was just that i never had any thoughts of doing a closer look on the hinges before until Philippe started this thread.

[Frank Heukemes]

Hi guys,

I also think it is remarkable that the pattern of the L/10 PAb and the ShuCo IAB are a match (while the L/10 IAB isn******180;t). I had assumed so far that the flatback GAB is a ShuCo, but hardly ever voiced it, because these is no proof.
Now Deschler is a contestant too, but I guess we will need to collect some more proof, right now there are still too many questions.
Philippe, do you still feel 100% about it?

[Hans N]

Even my own Flatback PAB******180;s hinge is a perfect match to my SH.u.Co IAB and to the L/10 mm******180;d Flatback.

[Philippe DB]

Philippe, do you still feel 100% about it?

Well after looking at hinges all day long and talking a bit offline I came to the conclusion that in this case I shouldn't have brougth the hinge in to the picture for the simple reason that I'm not able to tell who assembled these hinges, the maker of the badge or the supplier of the hardware.

If the hinge would have been a unique construction this might have made sense but not in this case because this type of hinge is probably on of the most commonly used hinge on dozens of badges and not in the least on Shuco's.

So at this moment L/10 for me is still a highly possible candidate but I wouldn't want to close the door on other options if evidence in another direction is brought forward.

KR
Philippe

[Graeme]

Very interesting thread. I expect we will all be getting eye strain this evening.

I think we should be very careful here. I agree with Don's assessment of tool marks. As far as I am concerned the only "hard evidence" in this thread is the similarities between the PAB L/10 hinge and the SHuCo hinge.

For me the finishing marks mentioned are not a strong connection. I know lots of small pieces of evidence can make a good case but for me this is just a little flimsy at the moment.

Seeing those tool marks is very exciting however. Great job with the pics Philippe and Robert.

regards

Graeme

[Indy]

Hi Guys

I'm happy to see we are going to find some clues out. Thus, I need to join this research team. I just checked my only 3 SHuCo IAB. Two of my SHuCo 41 are marked, and they are 4 stemmed. Their hige are the same pattern...exactly the same...I checked 2 side of the highes.. but they are different form Hans' 5 stemmed. Maybe...5 stemmed IABs were made by another maker. Hans, could you check your 4 and 5 stemmed SHuCo IABs? If they are different, that could mean that 4 and 5 may make by different makers.

kr
Indy

[Don D.]

Here is the hinge from my SchuCo Destroyer Badge.
Don

[Hans N]

Hi Guys

I'm happy to see we are going to find some clues out. Thus, I need to join this research team. I just checked my only 3 SHuCo IAB. Two of my SHuCo 41 are marked, and they are 4 stemmed. Their hige are the same pattern...exactly the same...I checked 2 side of the highes.. but they are different form Hans' 5 stemmed. Maybe...5 stemmed IABs were made by another maker. Hans, could you check your 4 and 5 stemmed SHuCo IABs? If they are different, that could mean that 4 and 5 may make by different makers.

kr
Indy

Of the 8 SH.u.Co IAB´s with this type of hinge in my collection only the matching one posted here has the exact same markings on the hinge as the L/10 PAB.

There are no identical hingemarks in my collection that could point in the direction that 2 different hardwaremakers was used among the SH.u.Co IAB´s. I have checked them all and not one looks like the other!

This leads me to think that it could be that it depends in what way they where made. If the hinges where made one by one it would without doubt show that the marks from the Tool in use would have increesed in a period of time from ware, but there are no qlue to that. So it could mean that the hardwaremaker used several Tools of the same type or a more industial way of massproducing them was in use.

As Don pointed out a Tool used makes a fingerprint but if a more massproduction type of manufacturing was used then we could have several fingerprints from the Tools used.

Since there are several different finger prints among the SH.u.Co´s in my collection it makes me to beleave that we are talking about a massproducing maker of Hardware that distrubuted them to several TR badge makers.

[robert60446]

Since there are several different finger prints among the SH.u.Co******180;s in my collection it makes me to beleave that we are talking about a massproducing maker of Hardware that distrubuted them to several TR badge makers.

Hans,
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but so far we have these hinges with marks from Deschler and SH.u.Co only, right?

[Hans N]

Hans,
Please correct me if i'm wrong, but so far we have these hinges with marks from Deschler and SH.u.Co only, right?

Robert,

yes thats right. But there are several other makers that used the same type of hinge.

[robert60446]

Robert,

yes thats right. But there are several other makers that used the same type of hinge.

Hans,
That’s right, but do they feature these veritcal marks on the hinge as well?

[Hans N]

Dear Robert,

what makes you think that all hinges has to have these marks?

I have a SH.u.Co IAB******180;s with same type of hinges with and without marks from the Tool, one is so mint it******180;s like it was made by a brand new tool today! Some of the hinges have deeper marks and some more shallow ones!

[robert60446]

Dear Robert,

what makes you think that all hinges has to have these marks?

I have a SH.u.Co IAB´s with same type of hinges with and without marks from the Tool, one is so mint it´s like it was made by a brand new tool today! Some of the hinges have deeper marks and some more shallow ones!

Hans,
That’s the whole point. As you pointed out this is very popular type of the hinge (probably 2nd popular in line after the block hinge). But only hinges on the: L/10 PAB; (identical to this L/10) flat back design unmarked PAB's and some SHuCO badges feature these vertical lines on their hinges. We have several types of the flat back PAB’s (probably made by the different manufacturers) but only identical to the L/10 design should feature these vertical lines on their hinges (if I’m correct – please correct me if I’m wrong). Also I'm waiting for the heer flak badge (flat back as well) with the same type of the hinge with vertical lines on it as on the L/10 PAB (at least that's what i have been told over the phone by the badge owner). So my point is, only the hinges found on Deschler and SHuCo badges are with these vertical marks on it. If someone got any other maker marked badges with this type of the marked hinge, please post them here, so we can move it forward.

[Graeme]

Robert

Just a quick response here.

There is only one L/10 marked flat back PAB known..I hope that is correct.
If so, we usually like to see a few other examples before accepting this as gospel. Or the experts do anyway.
The L/10 association was also used in this thread because of the marked IAB. After seeing the hinge on that IAB I do not think this badge comes into the equation.

So for me, currently there is no more hard proof other than the L/10 maker mark on that single flat back PAB.

The only other conclusion we can make is that the two near identically marked hinges were probably made by the same company.

Hope that all makes sense

regards

Graeme