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**greg.hays** · 09-24-2005, 07:31 PM

It's funny you all should mention that 1/3 of the unmarked IAB's are now linked to a maker. I just updated the stats and decided to do a little math, because something struck me. When I began the stats thread I really expected to see a lot of unmarked badges. It turns out that so far in our small little community 23% of Silver IAB's are unmarked. Only 23%

. I haven't done the math on the Bronze IAB's yet but it doesn't look to be too much different at first glance. Now I know our community is just a very small slice of the pie, but still a decent sample group. Sorry completely off the topic of OM, but something to think about.

**Tim Curley** · 09-24-2005, 11:47 PM

IABs - Marked vs Unmarked

The previous thread entry got me to thinking so I did some research this evening on the subject of IABs, marked versus unmarked. I found the following numbers:

COLLECTOR'S GUILD Unmarked / Marked / % Unmarked
Silver 7 / 3 / 70% Unmarked
Bronze 2 / 2 / 50% Unmarked

WEITZE Silver 14 / 3 / 82% Unmarked
Bronze 4 / 1 / 80% Unmarked

WINKLER Silver 89 / 19 / 82% Unmarked
Bronze 14 / 3 / 82% Unmarked

YOURS TRULY Silver 49 / 114 / 30% Unmarked
Bronze 15 / 37 / 38% Unmarked

Looking at these numbers, what can we deduce from them?

1. Kai Winkler is obviously attempting (successfully) to corner the market on unmarked IABs.
2. His large inventory and Weitze's more modest stock reveal almost identical %s of unmarked badges.
3. My guess is the large percentage of unmarked IABs is due mostly to collectors seeking out maker marks, thus leaving the dealers with a large percentage of the unmarked ones. This despite the fact many of the unmarked IABs are fine examples in either detail, finish or both. The dealer inventories are skewed by collector demand.
4. A better analysis of either Winkler's or Weitze's listing would track sales by type (unmarked vs marked) and ending inventory over a year as then we would expect to see a lower percentage of unmarked vs marked IABs over that period.
5. The dealers, if they wish to move their inventory in the near future, should reduce the prices on these unmarked IABs in light of market demand (or lack of demand).
6. The unmarked IABs may become more desirable in the longer range if Frank comes out with a book demonstrating/illustrating/providing evidence of who the makers are for some of these unmarked IABs.
7. My collection shows dramatically different percentages and is heavily skewed towards marked IABs simply because I have sought them out over 30 years. I do not think it begins to approximate the actual relationship of unmarked to marked IABs.
8. My collection also shows what can happen when one fails to demonstrate collector discipline to be content with one mint Silver IAB and one mint Bronze IAB. Don't let this happen to you!!!!!

**Bruce Simcox** · 09-25-2005, 12:11 AM

Hi Tim......

......Glad to read your interesting comparisons. I too used to seek the mm'ed badges for the reason that a mm seemed to me to be a almost infallible degree of authenticity. I was incorrect, as it has turned out, in coming to that conclusion at the time that I did. To me that's ok. I agree with your comment here:

This despite the fact many of the unmarked IABs are fine examples in either detail, finish or both. The dealer inventories are skewed by collector demand.

As a result of a marked(heh, heh) tendency of collectors to seek out mm'ed examples of Third Reich badges that leaves many, many very fine unmarked specimens remaining to find their way into my collection. A fact that I, for one, feel very comfortable about.

Regards,

-------------------------

Bruce

**Philippe DB** · 09-25-2005, 02:25 AM

Morning guys,

Well Tim I can only imagin how much time it took you to make that comparison on the dealer sites and I won't do it over. However if we did I'm confident that we would be able to match quite a few of these unmarked badges to their respective makers.

Your correct dealers stocks are largely filled with unmarked badges because collectors feel much more at ease when buying marked badges for the simply reason that they are much more easy to authenticate and for that comfort they are even prepared to pay a premium.

Well as far as I'm concerned this will chance in the future. Not only because collectors get more educated and start specializing themselfs in certain areas but also because in the future they will have reference material at their disposal (like the series Frank is working on) to see light in the darkness.

Who needs a maker mark when there are other ways to determine a maker of a badge. Only speakinig for myself I know that for me the mm is irrelevant once I know who produced the badge and from that moment on I rather pick up a cheap unmarked variant of a certain badge than to pay a premium for one in less condition with a mm.

Here' a little example to underline the point I'm trying to make. This is an L/51 E.F Wiedmann IAB that I picked up on the e-stand a couple of weeks ago for €46. If that same badge would have featured the L/51 mm it would have easely sold for €120 in a few minutes. Now it just set there without anybody paying much atention to it. Who says this is an expensive hobby, it's everybodies owne decission to decide what to spend money on , mm or nice original badge. As you two "OM" marked IAB's proof a mm isn't always the end of the story either

KR
Philippe

Attached Files

ISA L51 um o.jpg (114.4 KB, 84 views)

**Philippe DB** · 09-25-2005, 02:26 AM

reverse

Attached Files

ISA L51 um r.jpg (91.8 KB, 84 views)

**greg.hays** · 09-25-2005, 08:30 AM

Hi Tim, you make some excellent points. I have watched some very nice unmarked badges sit for months, and even in one case for over a year, on dealer sites while less attractive marked examples have moved in half the time at twice the price. But I've been guilty of falling prey to the same "maker mark' mentality. Not anymore, I'm free and spending a lot less.

I still wonder what the actual percentage of unmarked to marked badges really is. When I started the stats I assumed I'd see something much more in favor of the unmarked badges....like 60/40 unmarked to marked.

**Bruce Simcox** · 09-25-2005, 04:01 PM

Hi Philippe......

......That IAB you picked up was one that I saw too late, or it would have made it's way to Northern California. Congrats!

-------------------------

Bruce

**Tim Curley** · 09-25-2005, 09:25 PM

Philippe has taken a logical and interesting approach to collecting these IABs. When I started collecting in the "dark ages" knowledge about IABs was scarce, nobody I ran into had the slightest interest in maker marks for them, and I was collecting on a very limited budget. Therefore, while I did pick up some very nice or interesting unmarked IABs, I was focused on finding badges with different maker marks. That meant I passed up a lot of unmarked badges either through ignorance or lack of funds when I had to make a decision between buying a maker marked IAB or an unmarked one.

It is hard to realize but $10.00 to $12.00 for an IAB back in 1978 was like $100.00 to $150.00 today. And at current prices, I think pretty hard before shelling out that kind of money regardless of the fact I have it available.

**Ostbat** · 09-26-2005, 05:48 AM

Sirs,
I not so well know English, therefore not all have understood in your very interesting discussion. I so have understood, what IAB, presented by me in the beginning of discussion, is not OM mark?
Thank.
Igor.

**Frank Heukemes** · 09-26-2005, 07:07 AM

Possibly, Igor, but not neccessarily. At least it is original.

**Ostbat** · 09-26-2005, 07:34 AM

Thank Frank!

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