12 SS Long Service Medal with case

[Antonio Scapini]

IMO the doc is not original.
I've checked the Oberabschnitt "Fulda-Werra" Führer and Stabsführer list and no one is matching with the signature (that looks very odd IMO). The only Sturmbannführer was Joachim Richter promoted to Obersturmbannüfhrer on april 20, 1938.

Another point: this type of doc was used on '30, it is an early style doc, never used, as far as I know, on '40.
Furthermore the Nazis officially abandoned the widely used Fraktur type after Martin Bormann's Normalschrifterlass of January 3, 1941. The change was obviously not immediate, but in 1943 an important SS-Oberabschnitt as the "Fulda-Werra" would never had a doc like this.

Below two '30 style doc and stamp.

[J C Gray]

I thought that it was a bit odd, even the fact that they specifically noted that the 'Etui' was being returned seemed quite contrived to me.
A quick search with the German War Graves Commission did not turn up any records on a 'Berthold Gumsach'...I know that their records are in no way complete, but this letter is suggesting that his death was well enough documented at the time.

[Von.Burgdorf]

Hi Antonio.

I am 56 years old, i bought my first medal in 1971,a "Blue Division" medal,when i was eleven years old,in the flea market of Madrid,i am not an "expert" on militaria,certainly because i like to much things and i have diversified to much my collection (Germany,Spain,and other countries... Medals,daggers,helmets,belt buckles,dress belts,and others...),but i think that i have a good experience and flair,and,like we say in Spain,"the devil knows more because he is old than because he is devil". Many times i have seen "prestigious" sellers selling risible items and that pieces that were considered as originals some years ago,now are considered fakes,and pieces that were considered fakes,now are considered originals (for example,many years ago,Angolia stated that Souval badges marked with angular "RS" were authentic and that marked with round "RS" were post war production,and now some badges marked with round "RS are considered war-time originals).
Now you prove that this document is false, with good arguments, not simple "fake", "thumb down" or other comments of the same style and i am convinced that you are right ,and this confirm my opinion that the certificates of authenticity are worthless papers.

You wrote:

"Never seen a fake based on this type before, because in all these years I've seen only 3 of them around and handled only one.

And I showed that all what you wrote about this medal is wrong.

I'm not saying they are wartime (so they could be fakes), but I think before dismiss a piece made with an hand made die we should be cautious.

If I said this medal was made with an hand made die is why I'm sure of what I'm saying. It is not a computer made fake.

There's a big difference from a fake and a piece that sould be better studied. It is not the first time we dismiss an original piece (see for example the Souval Bandenkampf or all the Straight G Memels...) or we accept a fake as original (see the Champagne SS decal...).

This is an hobby, there's no winner in say "good" or "fake" for first, we can take all the time we need to make studies, comparisons and discuss.
It's always better spend words and time, they cost nothing to us... I have not the truth in my pocket, that's why I ask to discuss, because maybe I have something new to learn." and i agree 100% with this way of thinking. You wrote too "About this type I think it was never discussed before, and my first reply was an attempt to start a positive discussion.

My replies to your first post were not a waste of time, I think they could be useful for a discussion.

I don't know if this type is good or not, but it is very hard to find one specimen."

I agree 100% with this way of thinking

You think that this cross may be authentic (or not) ,but YOU,with a great experience and knowledges, (i will not consider you an "expert" because i think that NOBODY is an expert,all of us have many things to study and know) have declared that you have seen only three crosses like mine.Then i asK: it is credible that a faker will spend a lot of money making very good dies to produce a few specimens,more when these specimens are well coined and very well finished and polished? Of course,i want to believe that my cross is authentic,and i will maintain hope to the last moment,so my answer is "no",but if somebody,you or another,can prove with good evidence that it is a fake,i will agree and cry.

Best regards to you and to J C Gray.

J-C.R.

[Antonio Scapini]

Thanks for your kind words J-C.
I agree that all us have to learn day by day.

About your medal I don't think someone spent so much money doing an hand made die obverse-reverse and made hand finished medals just for fun.
On the other side I have no solid evidences that let us think this is a wartime piece.
But, as far as I know, there are tens of TR pieces we consider original but without solid rock proofs.

About the medal discussed here I've made a lot of comparisons and I found that the micro cutter used to hand finish the accepted type are the same used here.
You can see it in quite all the originals (John I used also a picture of your 12 years medal - if you want post some close ups) and in all these discussed here.

[Antonio Scapini]

The same hand finish with micro cutter is present on high awards like the type 1 Bandenkampf in Gold and the BKA in Gold with diamonds both produced from Juncker...
I post only a picture for reference, I can't post all what I have because they will be published soon on the BKAs book ready on january.

[J C Gray]

Hi Antonio.
.................
Best regards to you and to J C Gray.

J-C.R.

De nada

[J C Gray]

...- if you want post some close ups) and in all these discussed here.

Here is a better close-up of the tooling marks...

[J C Gray]

...also visible (to a lesser extent) on my 'Doehle' Type...

[J C Gray]

And in contrast...not even the slightest attempt has been made to trim this area on this die-struck 'E G Frames' fake...