12 SS Long Service Medal with case

[Von.Burgdorf]

Cross for 12 years of loyal services in the ϟϟ with case.











Certificate of authenticity issued by Militärhistorisches - Archiv.





Click on the pictures to enlarge. Click once again to enlarge more.

[J C Gray]

This is a complete fake set.
These were sold by 'EG Frames' in England for £99.00 a set, until about 10 years ago when they were discontinued.
As for the COA...I think that the general consensus around here is that they are not worth the paper that they are printed on (no matter who issued them).

[Antonio Scapini]

The case is absolutely a fake.
But the cross IMO sould be better studied.

It is a die struck medal, made with an hand engraved die and hand finished with a micro cutter. A very elaborate production process and I saw only a couple of these along these years.

[Von.Burgdorf]

The case is absolutely a fake.
But the cross IMO sould be better studied.

It is a die struck medal, made with an hand engraved die and hand finished with a micro cutter. A very elaborate production process and I saw only a couple of these along these years.

If you want,i can try do better pictures and give weight and measures.

[J C Gray]

The case is absolutely a fake.
But the cross IMO sould be better studied.

It is a die struck medal, made with an hand engraved die and hand finished with a micro cutter. A very elaborate production process and I saw only a couple of these along these years.

Here we go again with the old 'it's die-struck, so it must be original' theory Antonio

To recap; These originated in England in the 1990's and were sold as reproductions by 'EG Frames' who specialize in re-strikes of British Army Medals.
They are indeed die-struck with very sharp (if inaccurate) detailing and a very reasonable attempt at the background stippling, but a blind man on a galloping horse can see that the lettering is computer generated.
They are accurately hand finished with frosting and mirror polished highlights although an extra bit of de-burring of the edges wouldn't have gone amiss...but hey!...what do you expect for 99 quid?
These medals were also available in gold grade for 25 years service and were sold as reproductions in complete sets consisting of this cross, this case and embroidered ribbon for £99.99 until about 10 years ago when they were discontinued.
The ribbon which is missing from the above set would have been of the correct width and colour with extremely well executed bullion embroidery, let down by the fact that the ribbon itself had a non-scalloped edge and the runes were embroidered with wire bullion rather than purl bullion. The runes were also set at an angle rather than the perpendicular and were backed with a piece of buckram...unlike originals.
When these sets were discontinued, it was practically overnight when an inferior cast version of this medal appeared and is still being sold on Nicholas Morigi's website.
I really don't know how much clearer I can make it, but here goes:
This Medal is a reproduction!
This Case is a reproduction!
& if the ribbon was present it would also be a reproduction!

[VonPeter]

& if the ribbon was present it would also be a reproduction![/B]

That made me smile. The award is so fake that even the missing ribbon is fake.

Not trying to be a smartass, just saying this was funny.

/peter

[Antonio Scapini]

Here we go again with the old 'it's die-struck, so it must be original' theory Antonio

To recap; These originated in England in the 1990's and were sold as reproductions by 'EG Frames' who specialize in re-strikes of British Army Medals.[/B]

Why one year ago when we spoke about this type you didn't know who made these medals?
I showed you one in gold bought in '80... Did you forgot it?
BTW: I never say "it's die struck so it is original", so please, don't put in my mouth what doesn't belong to me... But keep reading, I'm sure you'll find a lot of surprises. And yes, I'm not so fast in dismiss a piece when I think there's something to discuss.

They are indeed die-struck with very sharp (if inaccurate) detailing and a very reasonable attempt at the background stippling, but a blind man on a galloping horse can see that the lettering is computer generated.[/B]

Or I'm completely blind, or you should dismount from the horse...
Nothing is computer generated here, even a blind man can see it.
Each letter is different.
And to be honest I can't understand why you write so wrong assumptions all in one time without knowing the medal... Please read the following posts and you will see how many mistakes you made in one time.

[Antonio Scapini]

...the ribbon itself had a non-scalloped edge and the runes were embroidered with wire bullion rather than purl bullion. The runes were also set at an angle rather than the perpendicular and were backed with a piece of buckram...unlike originals.[/B]

Ribbon is original, found with mounting pin also.
Bullion is correct and found in a lot of wartime productions.
Runes were made in 2 types during the war: small and large type.
Runes backing material is cardboard, not buckram.

Seem you made again a lot of mistakes here John.

[Antonio Scapini]

When these sets were discontinued, it was practically overnight when an inferior cast version of this medal appeared and is still being sold on Nicholas Morigi's website.[/B]

I think you are mistaken again here...
Here's what Morigi sell:
http://www.regaliaspecialist.com/Thi...oidered_ribbon

Never seen a fake based on this type before, because in all these years I've seen only 3 of them around and handled only one.

And I showed that all what you wrote about this medal is wrong.

I'm not saying they are wartime (so they could be fakes), but I think before dismiss a piece made with an hand made die we should be cautious.

If I said this medal was made with an hand made die is why I'm sure of what I'm saying. It is not a computer made fake.

There's a big difference from a fake and a piece that sould be better studied. It is not the first time we dismiss an original piece (see for example the Souval Bandenkampf or all the Straight G Memels...) or we accept a fake as original (see the Champagne SS decal...).

This is an hobby, there's no winner in say "good" or "fake" for first, we can take all the time we need to make studies, comparisons and discuss.
It's always better spend words and time, they cost nothing to us... I have not the truth in my pocket, that's why I ask to discuss, because maybe I have something new to learn.

[J C Gray]

Wow! that's me told, but you know what Antonio? I'm actually going to have to hold my hands up here and admit that I'm wrong. In my defence, I couldn't get the outside server photos to load earlier and could only view the thumbnails, so in hindsight I probably should have held back opinionwise.
Anyway, there are certain similarities between this and the one that I had previously thought it was and it is in an EG Frames case, so I hope that you won't crucify me too much, pleeeze
As for the bullion, I actually meant 'synthetic' bullion rather than wire bullion...and yes, I know that they used synthetic gold bullion in TR period, but I'm talking about Modern synthetic stuff here.
The cardboard under the embroidery is not what I was referring to when I said 'Backing'...that is the 'unterlagen', whereas, the buckram backing is a piece of material placed underneath the ribbon (at the back) in order to preserve the structural integrity of the ribbon during and after the embroidery process.
So, sorry to get you all hot and bothered there Antonio, I seem to have caused you an unnecessary amount of research and posting time. BTW. In case you hadn't noticed, I ended the opening statement of my previous post with a laughing, smiley faced emoticon, which I was under the impression was an internationally accepted method for ensuring that the relevant comment was meant in a totally light hearted way...similar to 'LOL'.

...and to recap once more;
I was wrong to declare that the medal in question was definitely a fake, and whilst I am still of the opnion that it is a fake, it is only an opinion for which I have no solid proof, but my reasons for thinking so are well documented elsewhere on the forum.

PS. If anyone should want an opinion on one of the EG Frames fakes, please see my previous post and juxtapose the relevant photos with those comments...this way, at least my post won't have being a total waste of time lol

[Antonio Scapini]

Hi John, I'm sorry if I misunderstood your first post, my apologies.

About this type I think it was never discussed before, and my first reply was an attempt to start a positive discussion.

My replies to your first post were not a waste of time, I think they could be useful for a discussion.

I don't know if this type is good or not, but it is very hard to find one specimen. Last year I was offered 2 SS 12 and a 25. It's at least 3-4 years that I'm looking for another medal like the one posted here but I found 5-6 only of the accepted type.
On about 10 pieces no one was like this discussed here.

Usually fakes pop up often than originals...

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi Antonio and John,

All I can say is that I wish I knew SS Medals as you guys do.

Best regards,
Tom

[J C Gray]

Hi Antonio and John,

All I can say is that I wish I knew SS Medals as you guys do.

Best regards,
Tom

I think we both know that we are only scratching the surface Tom...Antonio & I may not always agree, but I always respect his opinions on these most misunderstood of Third Reich awards.

[Von.Burgdorf]

More pictures...



Silvered tombak,clearly Die-struck,no file traces,very well polished,the cross has no burrs anywhere...



Weight: 26,4 gr.



The certificate of authenticity was accompanied with this other document,as stated in the certificate:




http://subefotos.com/ver/?9aa23d026d...6f107bba1x.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?79ff79c23a...c5fa7523cx.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?610f6c0c3b...7bdcdc56ax.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?35b1d536be...4a048962dx.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?8af32bbc60...5a88f2cddx.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?dc3ad589e0...4a95cb8f8x.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?f9dc71cdf6...86477b069x.jpg

http://subefotos.com/ver/?a603f1c21a...a1e206894x.jpg

[J C Gray]

Can anyone confirm that my translation of the accompanying document is accurate?

"...Estate of your son, SS-Unterscharführer Berthold Gumsach.

Dear Mr. Gumsach !
Please find enclosed, the recently discovered SS-Long Service Award of the 2nd grade with case, of your deceased son.
We would hereby like to again express our deep regret for the death of your son.
He has fallen for Greater Germany!

Heil Hitler
Der Führer SS-Oberabschnitt Fuida-Werra
I.V.
Signature

SS-Sturmbannführer"