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**Tom Yanacek** · 02-18-2015, 06:16 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Tom,

The information regarding the two makers- Godet and Deumer, came from a Nimmergut publication.

This would also make sense though because an example of the Red Cross neck cross is displayed in the Ordens Museum in Lüdenscheid, the town where Deumer was located.

I would like to see a photo of the reverse of the oakleaf suspender of the Cross in question if possible.

Stan

Hi Stan,

Thanks for the informatiom.

I never saw that particular publication from Jörg Nimmergut. If you still have a copy of that in your possession, could you make a scan of the page where he mentions this and post it? Or just post the quotation from him where he mentions Deumer. This is really interesting to me and I would be grateful for any assistance.

Also, as far as the museum in Lüdenscheid is concerned, was it a Red Cross Decoration First Class on display or a Social Welfare Decoration First Class?

Val has a couple pictures showing the reverse of the oakleaf suspension in post #5. It appears to have the seam at the lower reverse, but I still question the base metal it is made of and the finish.

Thank you & best regards,
Tom

**Peter J.** · 02-18-2015, 07:47 PM

So selling for a 3rd party is OK?

cheers
Peter

**Stan** · 02-19-2015, 04:20 AM

Hi Tom,

Here is the page which shows the Social Welfare Cross and the mention of the two makers.

My comment regarding a Deumer Red Cross Neck Cross being displayed at the Ordens Museum in Lüdescheid was simply an assumption that if Deumer did make the Red Cross decoration it would be logical for them to also produce the Social Welfare decoration. Just my opinion!

Stan

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Nimmergut 5a.jpg (47.7 KB, 95 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 02-19-2015, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Hi Tom,

Here is the page which shows the Social Welfare Cross and the mention of the two makers.

My comment regarding a Deumer Red Cross Neck Cross being displayed at the Ordens Museum in Lüdescheid was simply an assumption that if Deumer did make the Red Cross decoration it would be logical for them to also produce the Social Welfare decoration. Just my opinion!

Stan

Hi Stan,

Thank you for posting that page from Nimmergut. I really appreciate it.

Thank you also for the clarification about Deumer and the Red Cross Decoration. I would agree that your assumption is at least logical.

It is interesting what Nimmergut says at the top left of the page in regards to the suspension ring. He says that it is five-fluted, embellished with two minted oakleaves, and that the suspension ring is not soldered. I wonder exactly what he means here: Is the suspension ring somehow made without a seam? Should there be a visible seam that is open and not soldered? Or were the ends somehow pressed together?

Best regards,
Tom

**Tom Yanacek** · 02-19-2015, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by Peter J. View Post

So selling for a 3rd party is OK?

cheers
Peter

Hi Peter,

Thank you! And that is a very good point you make. I didn't even think about that until you mentioned it.

Per estand rules:

h) Selling items on behalf of someone else is strictly prohibited and will result in your permanent expulsion from the website in your first offence.

So Val:

Unless you own this piece yourself, you are not allowed to sell it on the estand. You cannot sell it for someone else.

It could be a language issue, but from the comments in your last posting it seems that you are not the actual owner and are trying to help a friend out.

Best regards,
Tom

**James Clark** · 02-19-2015, 05:07 PM

Originally posted by Stan View Post

Tom,

The information regarding the two makers- Godet and Deumer, came from a Nimmergut publication.

This would also make sense though because an example of the Red Cross neck cross is displayed in the Ordens Museum in Lüdenscheid, the town where Deumer was located.

I would like to see a photo of the reverse of the oakleaf suspender of the Cross in question if possible.

Stan

All three grades of the Ehrenzeichen für deutsche Volkspflege are included in the following sales catalogues:
Wilhelm Deumer (1940)
Otto Schickle (1940)
Steinhauer & Lück (1941)

**Tom Yanacek** · 02-19-2015, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by James Clark View Post

All three grades of the Ehrenzeichen für deutsche Volkspflege are included in the following sales catalogues:
Wilhelm Deumer (1940)
Otto Schickle (1940)
Steinhauer & Lück (1941)

Hi James,

Thanks for the information.

So now it appears that four manufacturers were involved in production/sales of First Class Social Welfare Decorations. I really have to wonder, though: Were these other firms actually making the pieces for themselves or perhaps they were obtaining them from Godet? Or if these other firms did in fact manufacture the decorations, did they do so with master dies cut by and supplied to them by Godet?

I assume the decorations are pictured in the catalogs. Do you see any differences in the designs, especially in regards to cutouts or lack thereof around the eagle's talons?

If you are able to post some images of the catalog depictions that would be great. It is nice to learn more about these decorations so any information you have to share is most appreciated.

Thank you & best regards,
Tom

**Antonio Scapini** · 02-20-2015, 05:24 AM

Here the pictures of the catalogues. I think with this discussion we opened Pandora's box!

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**Antonio Scapini** · 02-20-2015, 05:25 AM

And Steinhauer & Luck.

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S&L.jpg (191.4 KB, 92 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 02-20-2015, 10:25 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Here the pictures of the catalogues. I think with this discussion we opened Pandora's box!

Hi Antonio,

Thanks for posting those images out of the catalogs.

I'm okay with the Pandora's box as sometimes it is the only way to learn more.

What I really like, though, are the prices in the catalogs.

If the catalog depictions are accurate (and I see no reason why they wouldn't be) it appears that each design is different. That negates the possibility of master die-sharing amongst all of the manufacturers. But as I see it, the Deumer pattern closely resembles a Godet (in both the decoration itself and the oakleaf suspension). In fact, so much so that I would speculate some sort of business connection/cooperation existed between the two companies. Possibly there was some parts sharing or die sharing going on. Or maybe Deumer didn't even make them at all and simply bought the finished product from Godet. I have to wonder: Is it even possible to tell a Godet from a Deumer?

The Otto Schickle design looks distinctly different from the Godet/Deumer. It looks so different (shape of eagle's head, unique oakleaf suspension, very small suspension ring) that it should be immediately recognizable if one is encountered. I have never seen such a piece. I'm thinking that it is either extremely rare or maybe Otto Schickle was closed down before they really started making them.

The S&L design is also different from the Godet/Deumer design. And it appears that this design even has small cutout areas to the outboard of the eagle's talons, sort of like what we see on the example posted by Val at the start of this thread. IMO, Val's example comes closest to the S&L-type design. However, I still see lots of differences with the wreath, eagle's talons, the cutout areas, and the oakleaf suspension.

I am still of the opinion that Val's example is a postwar reproduction. The overall quality is lacking, the finish looks inferior, and I still question the base metal that it is made from. And considering S&L's postwar production activities (which probably equal those of Rudolf Souval in Vienna) I think it is all the more reason to question the piece with utmost scrutiny.

This thread has developed into a valuable learning experience for me and I hope to learn still more. I appreciate everyone's participation as it is by sharing thoughts and information that we can all become more knowledgeable and benefit the hobby as a whole.

Best regards,
Tom

**adren** · 02-20-2015, 11:59 AM

Hi guys, here is my Godet for reference, it even had the button mini still in the case:

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**adren** · 02-20-2015, 12:00 PM

123

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**adren** · 02-20-2015, 12:01 PM

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**Tom Yanacek** · 02-20-2015, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by adren View Post

Hi guys, here is my Godet for reference, it even had the button mini still in the case:

Hi Adren,

That is wonderful. Thanks for posting that beauty.

Best regards,
Tom

**VonPeter** · 02-20-2015, 12:24 PM

Hi Adren, the ribbon bar looks very nice, is it the "clip-on" style to be added to longer bars?

I wouldnt mind seeing pics of it (front and back).

/peter

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