Cased Ehrenzeichen fur Deutsche Volkspflege 1 Stufe

[VonPeter]

No problem Tom, Always happy to give my opinion on ribbons. Your gut feeling to question the ribbon was imo right. Maybe the new owner has good knowledge of ribbons and can give us his opinion.

/peter

[Stan]

We must not forget that there were TWO makers of this cross though- Godet and Deumer, so that could explain the differences.

Stan

[Antonio Scapini]

Great work guys!

Before reading Stan's reply I was thinking about the possibility there were more different makers of this cross. Isn't it possible for example the makers were more than 2?
It could be interesting to know something more.
Godet, as far as I know, never marked these awards, but marked some cases.

[Tom Yanacek]

We must not forget that there were TWO makers of this cross though- Godet and Deumer, so that could explain the differences.

Stan

Hi Stan,

This is very interesting. I've read that Deumer manufactured Second and Third Class Social Welfare Decorations, but not the First Class. I think Otto Schickle of Pforzheim was another manufacturer of the Second and Third Classes, but not of the First Class.

Do you know how and where this information about Deumer surfaced? Is this information speculation or known fact?

I have never seen any of these that were maker marked, although Angolia says with regard to the First Class Decorations:

"Usually the reverse of the cross is solid white enamel, but original examples may have existed bearing the manufacturer's logo on a plain gold-plated surface."

If there are any such originals, with a plain gold and maker marked reverse, I have yet to see one. I really don't think that info from Angolia is correct. I've also read somewhere that the earliest examples made by Godet had a ball-type suspension eyelet rather than the standard loop. I'm not sure if that is correct or not.

I am curious as to what you think of the example that started this thread and also the one posted by ironfist in post #25. Do you think those are original pieces made by Deumer? I could be wrong, but neither of those give me a good feeling while Antonio's screams real and needs no convincing.

Thank you and best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Great work guys!

Before reading Stan's reply I was thinking about the possibility there were more different makers of this cross. Isn't it possible for example the makers were more than 2?
It could be interesting to know something more.
Godet, as far as I know, never marked these awards, but marked some cases.

Hi Antonio,

Right now I am thinking that anything is possible. But I am trying to adjust to the thought of two makers being involved (which already seems a stretch). I cannot imagine three or more manufacturers making First Class Social Welfare Decorations. How many of these would have actually been needed, considering that they would have only been awarded to General-Grade Officers or the civilian equivalency.

It sure would be nice to learn something more here. Information about these Social Welfare Decorations has always been elusive. I agree that this is an excellent thread and hopefully we will make some good progress in expanding our knowledge.

I am not aware of any marked examples of these decorations either, although I have seen the marked Godet cases that you mentioned.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

"Usually the reverse of the cross is solid white enamel, but original examples may have existed bearing the manufacturer's logo on a plain gold-plated surface."

Aha! Just found one with a plain gold reverse and maker markings.

Ooops...... never mind.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi guys,

I think the case posted at the beginning of the thread is also worthy of discussion.

The case appears to lack the overall quality I would expect to see in an original. In the first place, the gold border on the outer lid looks weak and non-existent in places. It seems to me that the embossing is deeper and bolder on original cases.

I am also confused by the Frakturschrift on the lid lining. I know I shouldn't discount the possibility of variations existing with these cases, but I have never seen an original case with this type of script. The letter 'V' in 'Volkspflege' looks more like a 'B', although that is a trait of this particular style of script. Still, it strikes me as odd as never having seen it on one of these cases before.

The script that I always see on original cases (be they for the first, second, or third class decorations) is a more simplified and legible form as shown at the very bottom of the attached image.

Best regards,
Tom

[Tom Yanacek]

Again, I shouldn't exclude the possibility of variations, but the button lock on the case in question troubles me. I have never seen this type of button lock on a case for a Social Welfare Decoration. And it always makes me leery when 75+ year old brass shines like new.

At the very bottom of the attached image is an original case with its characteristic button lock. It is the same type of button lock that is found on cases for the Olympic Games Decorations.

Also worth noting is that Reddick Militaria sells reproduction cases for the Social Welfare Decoration First Class. They are $98., so they must be a fairly good copy. One is pictured in the link below, but it is a pretty small picture. The case has the incorrect button lock and it also has the odd Frakturschrift like the case at the start of this thread.

http://www.reddickmilitaria.com/thir...ase-case-only/

We have to be really careful with these decorations and cases. Some of the reproductions are very very good.

Best regards,
Tom

[Antonio Scapini]

I add to the discussion a case for the 3rd class. Case is market Godet and it matches with the one posted by Tom.

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi Antonio,

Beautiful Third Class Decoration and case.

Best regards,
Tom

[adren]

Hi Adren,

Yes! And this is definitely not a Godet is it?

Best regards,
Tom

Hello Tom, I have a cased Godet 1st class medal and it totally matches Antonios and the case is an exact match that you posted as original.

Case is marked with Godet logo in the back.

Otherwise don´t have much to add to your analysis, good work!


Best Regards,

Adren

[Tom Yanacek]

Hello Tom, I have a cased Godet 1st class medal and it totally matches Antonios and the case is an exact match that you posted as original.

Case is marked with Godet logo in the back.

Otherwise don´t have much to add to your analysis, good work!


Best Regards,

Adren

Hi Adren,

Thanks for your response. Feel free to post some pictures if you like. I would love to see it.

Actually, I would also like to hear from Val. He started this thread asking for opinions and has since remained totally removed from the discussion. It would be interesting to hear his opinion and perhaps he has some important information that could help us all. As I mentioned before: information about these decorations has always been sketchy, at best, and it would be great to learn more.

Best regards,
Tom

[panzermania]

Hi Guys,

First, thank you for your help and informations.
I don't have other any informations on the origine of this medal.
A father's friends say me he have lot of medal and insignias for sale and would like some help to identified and sell his collection.
So he keep me a box with approx 30 medals and badges, when I have open the box it was not a dream, LW,KM and Heer combats badges were all fakes, old and bad.
The only originals items was basic awards and medal (DRL, KVK, WB)

After he said me, he have a boxes awards but he don't know what is it.
My first thought was "Okay, certainly an other fake" and when I have see this, "Maybe not" I'm collecting only combat badge and insignias, I have posted it on French Forum with no answerd. Some french medal collector who have had the medals hand in hands say me it was original, but no better informations or doc.

So I put it on WAF and an other forum to have many informations and opinions.

If you need better pics or special pics of the medal, feel free to ask.
Maybe we could find the true on this rare medals.

Best regards

[Stan]

Tom,

The information regarding the two makers- Godet and Deumer, came from a Nimmergut publication.

This would also make sense though because an example of the Red Cross neck cross is displayed in the Ordens Museum in Lüdenscheid, the town where Deumer was located.

I would like to see a photo of the reverse of the oakleaf suspender of the Cross in question if possible.

Stan

[Tom Yanacek]

Hi Guys,

First, thank you for your help and informations.
I don't have other any informations on the origine of this medal.
A father's friends say me he have lot of medal and insignias for sale and would like some help to identified and sell his collection.
So he keep me a box with approx 30 medals and badges, when I have open the box it was not a dream, LW,KM and Heer combats badges were all fakes, old and bad.
The only originals items was basic awards and medal (DRL, KVK, WB)

After he said me, he have a boxes awards but he don't know what is it.
My first thought was "Okay, certainly an other fake" and when I have see this, "Maybe not" I'm collecting only combat badge and insignias, I have posted it on French Forum with no answerd. Some french medal collector who have had the medals hand in hands say me it was original, but no better informations or doc.

So I put it on WAF and an other forum to have many informations and opinions.

If you need better pics or special pics of the medal, feel free to ask.
Maybe we could find the true on this rare medals.

Best regards

Hi Val,

Thanks for responding and I do appreciate the information about the piece in question. So it came from collection in which all but the most common of items were old and crude fakes. If that is the kind of stuff the guy was buying, I find it highly unlikely that he would have bought an original Social Welfare Decoration First Class in a case or ended up with a rare, original, and expensive item by blind luck. Strange things can happen, but it sure makes me wonder all the more about the authenticity of the piece.

If this piece is actually a fake it is certainly not a crude one. It seems well-made, although I still feel it lacks the quality of an original.

As it stands right now, I would not want to have one like this in my collection as I am not comfortable with it in the least. Maybe, if some new evidence or information surfaces about these, I will change my opinion. It sure would be nice to know, one way or the other, with absolute certainty.

Thank you and best regards,
Tom