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**Antonio Scapini** · 01-13-2015, 04:08 PM

Sometimes the truth is not easy to find.

About the marked medals is the same, sometimes there are only few specimens with mm on ring. When I worked on Memel medals, in years of research I found only one marked 10, 4-5 marked L/11, only 1 or 2 marked L/18 and the same for L/13.

There are too many questions without answer, only team work and research can generate answers. So thanks to all the guys are "working" in this thread.

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

There are too many questions without answer, only team work and research can generate answers. So thanks to all the guys are "working" in this thread.

Hi guys,

I agree wholeheartedly with Antonio. I also want to thank everyone for their participation in this thread. We are now into five pages of discussing a "common" Luftschutz Medal. We definitely can use more such discussions as there is still so much to learn about the common medals.

Best regards,
Tom

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Guys, the mm on DK is too big for a suspension ring. How can we compare them?

Hi Antonio,

The comparison may not be the best, but I don't believe it is entirely unfair to make either. Besides, I wanted to practice my computer skills.

How big is the maker stamp on a Klein DK anyway? I figure it is about 3mm in length and about 1.5mm high. To me that seems pretty small. And I can see that fitting onto a suspension ring (typically having a gauge of at least 1.5mm and a diameter of 12mm) fairly well. I could be wrong, but it seems to me like we are looking at markings that are comparable in size.

Originally posted by VonPeter View Post

Is the mm on DKIG´s really that much bigger?

Hi Peter,

I don't think they are. And since I have your permission, I am re-posting your maker mark comparison so it doesn't vanish from the thread.

Attached Files

1r999z.jpg (103.6 KB, 94 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 11:30 PM

Originally posted by SKAND View Post

Tom, DKIG is flat, but the ring is round and thin, therefore there may be some difference in digits. It is more difficult to stamp on a so thin ring than on a large surface. IMO

Hi Alex,

Yes! Those are good points and I agree with you.

It is also a pretty large stamp to use for a suspension ring marking and maybe that is why the bottom part of the marking is missing.

Best regards,
Tom

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Skyhawk View Post

The other point is, the suspension ring could have been added to the medal along with the repro ribbon, and come from entirely different sources?

Hi Jeff,

Yes, indeed! A very good point that was briefly touched upon earlier in the thread. Some guys just don't realize how easy it is to swap out a suspension ring. Several years ago I posted a demo in a discussion concerning Westwall Medals. I will repeat it here as a reminder to us all to stay on our toes.

Swapping out a suspension ring is simple to do and can be done in less than a minute. To experiment, I took this zinc Westwall Medal which, if it broke would be no great loss. Notice that the split on this suspension ring is angled to the left. (After I remove the ring, I will flip the ring around so that the split will be angled to the right. This should prove that the last picture I post is not just another picture of the medal before the ring was removed.)

Step 1: The experimental medal.

Attached Files

step 1.JPG (185.9 KB, 93 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 11:56 PM

Step 2: By bending the ring laterally, the suspension ring will never go out of round. These rings were not hardened, so it can be done without the use of tools.

Attached Files

step 2.JPG (155.5 KB, 95 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-13-2015, 11:59 PM

Step 3: The suspension ring is completely removed in seconds.

Attached Files

step 3.JPG (201.9 KB, 99 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-14-2015, 12:01 AM

Step 4: The suspension ring is re-fed through the eyelet.

Attached Files

step 4.JPG (163.6 KB, 98 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-14-2015, 12:05 AM

Step 5: The suspension ring is bent back in place and without the use of any tools. No tools = no tool marks on the ring. No distortion to the ring either because the ring never went out of round.

Attached Files

step 5.JPG (171.9 KB, 101 views)

**Tom Yanacek** · 01-14-2015, 01:22 AM

Added a couple of known fake '134' markings to the comparison:

I still can't find an example of a fake '134' marking from a Johannes Floch Austrian EK1 fake. There was one that popped up on Craig Gottlieb's site a year or two ago but it has since vanished.

Attached Files

8.jpg (185.8 KB, 97 views)

**Antonio Scapini** · 01-14-2015, 04:33 AM

I've checked my 2 DKiG marked 134, but both are different from the mm on Luftschutz medal.
Furthermore the size and the shape (oval instead rectangular) are different.
IMO they used a different punch for rings, smaller than the others used for DKs so comparisons are hard to male.
There was an EKII if I'm not mistaken with "134" mm, but I didn't find it.

Could you provide, Alex, measurement of the diameter of your medal? So we can compare them with other original piece. I know it is not the best compare measurements of different makers, but if a medal is too small it could be a red flag!

Attached Files

**SKAND** · 01-14-2015, 07:01 AM

Originally posted by Antonio Scapini View Post

Could you provide, Alex, measurement of the diameter of your medal? So we can compare them with other original piece. I know it is not the best compare measurements of different makers, but if a medal is too small it could be a red flag!

Antonio, I wrote it earlier. Size 39mm, thickness 6mm, diameter of the ring 11 mm. Weight with ring, without ribbon 28,72 gr.

**Antonio Scapini** · 01-14-2015, 07:15 AM

Ok, sorry I forgot them.
Let's see if the other medals have the same diameter and thickness.

**SKAND** · 01-14-2015, 07:30 AM

Production of early zinc medals was very difficult with more than tens of different technological operation, one of them copper plating. Before silver plating the award of the feinzinc was coated with thin coats copper. I found traces of copper plating, it is difficult to show this on the photo. I did my best.
So under silver is copper, in my opinion there is good evidence of the originality of the medal.

**Skyhawk** · 01-14-2015, 08:54 AM

Hi All,

This absolutely continues to be an interesting thread!

@Tom: great example photos and changing a split ring is definitely as easy as you describe. Any common medal with a split ring and an unusual MM should be analyzed closely!

Regarding Otto Klein & Co. issued LDO #134 they were involved in the manufacture of "high end" cased awards such as the DKiG, and the Diamonds to the Knights Cross (OLS) for example. On the Diamond OLS pieces "K" in a circle was used as the maker mark. No list of EK2 makers I have seen ever shows "134" as a maker of EK2, either marked or unmarked. It must be remembered that some LDO makers were more like a "jeweler" than a manufacturer mass producing awards. I would be curious to see any additional suspension ring type awards with the MM 134.

Either way, this could be a pretty rare authentic piece or a clever reproduction! I hope the truth is discovered!

Best,

Jeff

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