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**Brian S** · 06-14-2004, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Craig Gottlieb

I, like many others, are simply tired of you. It's been said before, and I will say it again. I would love to come here and discuss these things, but when people reply with such foolishness or are unwilling to engage in rational discourse, but prefer name calling and taunts, and those comments are the loudest, it gets very tiresome.

St. Craig the Martyr

Ha! Just tell me what there is to discuss Craig? A fake wound badge is a topic of discussion? Maybe you and all your 'inner circle' who are tired of my terrible taunts at items like your fake oaks should do a little homework here. There was discussion over and over regarding fakes and people's desire to have a seperate thread, a fake forum, photos of fakes, etc. But Frank H and others said it plainly that discussing fakes was a waste of time. It's hard enough to understand the real stuff much less dissect every fake that comes along.

As for tiring of me, Craig, I can assure you that is of no consequence. I have a day job and at the end of the day I can be honest with you and suffer nothing. I can continue to honestly say it the way it is about your Oaks without the consequences of the thoughts of you and your circle. I wear your weariness of me as a badge of honor Craig. But no doubt to your chagrin, the person you're quoting and I have made the peace, sorry... Sad thing was it was your oaks that caused that momentary chasm between us.

Rather than carry this martyr attitude, you should have a little talk with Steven Wolfe and make sure you don't get caught in the middle with any more high profile replicas such as the Oaks. As JD said, that leaves you in the position as not only a money changer, but a money changer with counterfeit funds.

**Bill D.** · 06-14-2004, 03:49 PM

Yesterday I was at a flea market. A seller had on his table an M 42 helmet. The liner was replaced, and it was completely chromed. It was an obvious relic from the 1960's, when German helmets were comon and were popular headgear for motorcyclists. I liked it a lot, and thought it would be an interesting object both from the standpoint of the militaria hobby and as a cultural relic of the 60's. In fact, when I saw it I remembered a day when I was about 12 years old. My father and I were at a shopping center, and in the parking lot were a group of bikers, all memers of a club that at the time did not have the finest reputation. Looking at them I saw that one was wearing a german WW II helmet. I said "Hey, look at the helmet he's wearing ! I'm going to go over and ask him if he'll sell it !". My father's imediate reply:"YOU STAY AWAY FROM THOSE GUYS !"

So when I saw the chromed helmet, I decided that I'd pay as much as $50 for it. That's what it was worth to me. The seller's price was, it turned out, $100. I said "Thanks very much" and walked away.

Someone else might have considered that a good price, who knows ?
But it is all relative.

Craig, like any dealer, is entiltled in a free market economy to ask whatever price he wishes to place on an item. It really is that simple. And anyone is free to purchase it...or not, as the case may be. Does it drive up the hobby prices generally ? I don't think so. If a seller at a show has a superb E boat badge and he tells you it is $3,000 because "that is what Craig Gottleib (or Bill Shea, or fill in any other name here) is selling his for", then you are free to say "Yes, but I didn't buy his, either." If the seller at the show has the badge long enough, the price will adjust. That is what hapens in a market economy.

Now there are in this hobby some intangibles that go into a purchase for many collectors, including me. There are some dealers who are considered to be "high priced". Yet I believe that several of these delaers have worked long and hard to establish reputations for integrity and knowledge. They stand behind everything they sell, basically forever. And many collectors are willing to pay something extra for that security in a hobby that is strewn with obstalces.

An example: Tom Wittmann. I often hear collectors say that Tom's prices are "high". But I recall being at a show a number of years ago, and overhearing one collector tell another "Well, I finally broke down and bought a chainedd SS dagger from Witmann. I'll never get my money out of it, but I just really wanted a nice one." His friend asked him: "How much did you pay?". The reply" $1,200 !".

Also, I remember many years ago, in the early 1970's, when Tom would take out full page ads in a little monthly collectors' journal called "Der Gauleiter" (anyone else old enough to remember this?). Tom's full page "ads" didn't really offer anything for sale. Instead, 30 years ago Tom was providing a "Collector Tip of the Month" to the readers, giving ground breaking advice on how to spot problems with daggers (before you invested that $1,200 in a near mnt chained SS dagger!

). And if today I really wanted to buy a particular dager, for example to go with a uniform display, I would give Tom a call. Others might have it cheaper, but buying it from Tom, I would:
1. Know exactly what I'm getting; and
2. Be supporting a dealer who has tried to give something to the hobby over the years.

At about the same time that I joined our Forum years ago, I also joined the German Daggers dot com forum that Craig created. That forum was and remains a valuable resource in the hobby. There is something to be said for the fellows like Craig and Seba who blazed that trail on the internet to improve this hobby. Personally, while I understand many of the sentiments expressed here, I do think that it became more personal than was necessary.

And as a final note, I don't think that Detlev is the best example to use with respect to pricing. I have spken with detlev about his prices in the past. I have also sold things to him andI have then seen them ofered for sale by him o his site. As he has told me, his approach is very simple: He prices the items he sells above what he pays, of course, but he also wants to price them to make them attractive to collectors to buy. He is not interested in pricing an item high and then working down, just to se if he can get the higher price, to se if the market will bear it. It is a philosophy that has obviously served him very well. But there are different approaches to selling, as there are diferent approaches to collecting.

Well, just my opinions, anyway.

**Brian S** · 06-14-2004, 04:06 PM

Really good and honestly said comments Bill. But Craig's assertion that this was for our education and our good was a bit off the reality bite. You're right 100% in your comments but when Craig got defensive after many of us had said "if you can get it go for it that's your business" and said too much, it got to be too much not in terms of price but this supposed altruistic motive. That's when it just went over the top and Craig invited the justified shouts of "NO MORE PLEASE". You don't offer a $40 badge for $1,500 and tell me it's for my betterment. That's just demeaning.

**Tom M** · 06-14-2004, 04:57 PM

Thank you Craig for replying to our concerns. I personally see it as "Case closed". Crag has:

Taken the Badge of his site
Is prepared to show it to people at the shows
Replied to our comments

Please bear in mind that many dealers would not acheive one of these points. Cheers,

**Dietrich Maerz** · 06-14-2004, 07:27 PM

I learned a lot!

I know now what "Voodoo economics" is!

Dietrich

**Doug See** · 06-14-2004, 08:22 PM

(sorry, posted on wrong thread).

**Blitz** · 06-15-2004, 11:27 AM

I think that after the heated discussion i've seen here, this thread has had a worthy and dare i say happy ending. Allthough i had my doupts at the beginning, I'm glad that Craig did the right thing in the end. That doesn't mean that i would buy that 1500 dollar EK1 from his site though.

**I Marotto** · 06-15-2004, 12:52 PM

I must say out of all of this I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of Warlord and having a most pleasant phone conversation with him.

Ian

**Bill M** · 06-15-2004, 10:23 PM

--That's nice Ian, but I still don't get the comment that "Americans have no perseption of the value of reproductions. I could give chapter and verse on occasions were the copy, fakes what ever you call them are worth more than the original." Care to elaborate? The only worth to a copy is to compare it to an original to see how far forgeries have come. Otherwise, wasted money.

--This thread has been interesting but I do not buy the 'educational intent' of the original offering. This item could have been brought to the forum from the start, without the controversy of Rittmeister-style pricings (of a phony badge, no less) on a sales site.
--It is also my opinion that offering such a badge for so high a price is troubling for the multiple reasons mentioned in this thread.

**landsknechte** · 06-16-2004, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by WARLORD

So I return to my point, "It seems to me Americans have no perseption of the value of reproductions. I could give chapter and verse on occasions were the copy, fakes what ever you call them are worth more than the original. Is it a lack of comprehention of history that bedevils this hobby. I do not know."

How can the rejection of items that, by their very definition, are lacking in the "history" native to the item for which they are recreating, be indicative of a lack of comprehension of history? Quite honestly, it seems that precisely the opposite is true in the context of collecting. Reproductions may have some artistic value, but unless they have a unique history all of their own, they've got no more intrinsic value as a historical object that something pulled out of a Cracker Jack box. Perhaps even less so, insofar as what history they pretend to isn't their own.

The value that I do see for reproductions is within the reenactment community. As a former reenactor myself (albeit of a very different period), I'd want the best possible looking items as part of my kit, but I wouldn't for a second mind if "REPRO" or "COPY" was discreetly stamped somewere that wouldn't be visible when the item is being used.

--Chris

(...and since we're apparently having to provide our credentials in this thread: American. BA, European History. AA, Fine Art.)

**Eric Stahlhut** · 06-16-2004, 08:34 AM

I understand WARLORD's point about the potential value of reproductions.

Take antique furniture, for example: certain reproductions created in the mid to late 1800s are now worth just as much as original items. In some cases they may be worth even more than the original pieces.

**WARLORD** · 06-16-2004, 10:42 AM

Eric has put it very well. I can illistrate this in other fields. I am very supprised any one who has done an art degree has not encountered this. BUT where was the degree undertaken?

**landsknechte** · 06-16-2004, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by WARLORD

Eric has put it very well. I can illistrate this in other fields. I am very supprised any one who has done an art degree has not encountered this. BUT where was the degree undertaken?

If you must know, the AA was earned at Foothill College in California. I was accepted into the BFA program at San Jose State University (also in California), and completed my junior year there before changing majors.

Reproduction militaria as "art" and reproduction militaria as "history" are two different issues, IMHO.

**WARLORD** · 06-16-2004, 11:09 AM

I see your qualification. I would have expected with your comment you might have done this at Cambridge, Oxford, or possibly Heidleburge. Holland has many universities dealing with this subject.

**Brian S** · 06-16-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by Eric Stahlhut

I understand WARLORD's point about the potential value of reproductions.

Take antique furniture, for example: certain reproductions created in the mid to late 1800s are now worth just as much as original items. In some cases they may be worth even more than the original pieces.

Erich, you are quite right about old reproductions from the 1800's being antiques in their own right. But a Pakistani made copy the day before yesterday has little to no chance of finding the same place in value.

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