Scary 22 Juli 1944 Wound Badge Repro

[Pascal H.]

I don’t think our re-enactment friends would be very pleased with that Tom.
I think even in our hobby there is a place for repro badges.
There is however a BIG difference between repro badges and fakes.

Pascal

[Hasse.M]

Craig Gottlieb it's up to you to put a pricetag on you'r item's, no one else...

And I cant see any problems selling a fake when it's clearly described as such.


Best regards

[djpool]

Craig Gottlieb it's up to you to put a pricetag on you'r item's, no one else...

And I cant see any problems selling a fake when it's clearly described as such.


Best regards

I agree with Hasse. Over the years I've paid well over market on certain select items because they were rare. I have no regrets.Every item is now worth at least what I paid. Actually I wish I had the money to acquire more items and this was just 5 years ago. Now prices are through the roof on even the common items. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet if you want a rare piece in your collection.Jim

[Michael Everett]

My two cents.......

Gentlemen,

This is not a paid political announcement. I find petty and irresponsible that these discussions seem to always lead to somone's intergrity being questioned.

This hobby has made significant advances in the last 5-10 years due to the efforts of dealers like Tom Johnson, Detlev Niemann, Craig Gottlieb, etc. We should not criticize the right of any dealer, who is honest and straightforward to make a buck and provide us collectors with a greater variety of merchandise.

I really cannot understand the desire of some of you to personnally attack dealers/collectors who seem to be making an extra effort to educate all of us.

Regarding pricing, yes, our hooby is expensive. I however, subscribe to Tom Johnson's theory that most items are still grossly underpriced when you take into consideration, as Max Hasting wrote refering to the German Army in Normandy, ' the most professonally trained army to take the field of battle'.

The wound badge is being offered for what it is; straightforward, no issues.
I recently had the chance to inspect an almost perfect GFM baton and case. These batons are being professionally made by a jewelry and are being sold for well over a couple thousand EUROS (These are not the low-budget ones sold in Manion's). And, as most of you fear, many of these will find there way into collections and museums as originals. But, as Craig said, if you are going to invest that much money without a second opinion, who's fault is it really when reproductions are sold?

Michael Everett

[Brian S]

Michael, this has been a pretty civilised discussion. But I do agree it's up to Craig to do whatever he wants. Agree or disagree. I don't blame Craig for the prices of any of these items. As long as the lemmings jump off the cliff and pay whatever they can for whatever they can grab, prices will only go up further.

I will celebrate the day prices hit a wall and maybe this world's highest repro price (call Ripley) will be its exacting end! Prices =

[Tom M]

I don’t think our re-enactment friends would be very pleased with that Tom.
I think even in our hobby there is a place for repro badges.
There is however a BIG difference between repro badges and fakes.

Pascal

Very true. But would a re-enactor pay $1500 to wear a badge when performing?

[Pascal H.]

Very true. But would a re-enactor pay $1500 to wear a badge when performing?

Dear Tom, that's not the point here. The point is that you wanted to boycot ALL repros.
I think there is a place for repros in our hobby. The thing I hate are fakes. As I said before there is a big difference between repros and fakes.
And yes I think a serious collector would pay $1500 for a REPRO badge maybe not a repro RK but I can imagine him paying that amount for a repro Oakleaves with Swords and Diamonds.

Pascal

[Tom M]

Dear Tom, that's not the point here. The point is that you wanted to boycot ALL repros.
I think there is a place for repros in our hobby. The thing I hate are fakes. As I said before there is a big difference between repros and fakes.
And yes I think a serious collector would pay $1500 for a REPRO badge maybe not a repro RK but I can imagine him paying that amount for a repro Oakleaves with Swords and Diamonds.

Pascal

Maybe there is a place, I have no problem with people who want to collect them. I don't agree with your differences on repros and fakes though. Repros are copy's of the original and so are fakes. Repros may be sold as a repro but to who? Then they turn up on the "original" market. Why buy a repro knowing it's a repro anyway? The whole idea of it doesn't add up. It's not won by anybody or have any history. Mind boggling

[Craig Gottlieb]

Gerd Becker: Any comment that beings "with all due respect" is usually followed by comments that show no respect. Do you mean to tell me that a mint, cased, and boxed WWI Iron Cross First Class with flawless paint, wonderful patina, and a 3 line personalization is worth $500? You tell me, sir, where I can buy ones like the one I am selling for that price, and I will buy as many as you care to sell me. You should not be irresponsibly throwing around prices such as 300% without having the data to back up your claims. Find me another one like it for the $500 you so proudly claim that this Iron Cross is worth, and I, and about 500 other people, will be fighting to buy it.

Furthermore Mr. Becker, why do you quote my prices, and then misidentify my items? You call my $1595 cross an EK when it is so much more than that. You call my "$2450 navy badge" an "Eboat" when it is a perfect, mint, first pattern by schwerin - I dare you to find another copy for sale at even $2200 that compares. You call my "995 dollar badge" a "Minesweeper" but conveniently leave out the fact that it is a in the original distributor case which is in mint condition. And tell you what - you ask the buyers of these items in five years if they minded paying a little extra for something truly unique and beautiful, and see what they say.

You know what? If you want one of those items and you want to pay what your magic crystal ball tells you they should be worth, YOU go to a show, YOU spend your entire day beating the pavement for items like this, which do NOT fall into your lap, you spend the time and effort it takes to run a full time business, and then you can tell me or any other dealer that I'm greedy. I'm high-priced, and yes, I am a bit greedy. So what - youre greedy to to want a mint Eboat 1st pattern for $1500. The difference between my greed and other people's greed is that it is not practiced at the expense of anybody, and I do not compromise my integrity to achieve success in business. How dare you, sir. You owe me an apology.

For others who care to hear it, to me there are two legitimate methods to collecting - one is to be an opportunistic collector, and to simply take a pile of money and buy the best item you can find for that pile, for the best "bargain price." This is one legitimate way of collecting, a way that I collected daggers. You lose the luxury of saying "now I want an Army Uniform" and then "now I want a Navy Uniform." You take what you can get when you can get it. I collected that way. It allowed me to buy a Postal Leader for $1200. I respect that method, and there is a place for it. It allows those with more time than money to assemble a great collection at a sub-retail price. Then, for those for whom time is in short supply, and who want to seek a specific item for their collection in the ORDER THEY CHOOSE, there is the full retail venue. These individuals say to themselves 'It's time for the best Eboat I can find" and I don't care what it costs, within reason. Obviously, they wouldn't feel comfortable paying $5000 for one. But guaranteed, if they offered to pay $3000 on the forums, they'd probably have the best Eboat in the world, and several to choose from at that price. Don't criticise me, Mr. Becker, because I cater to the 2nd type of collector and you are the first type.

I'm sure I've made an enemy out of you now, by coming down so hard on you for your irresponsible comments. However, do the big thing, read over what you have said, read what I have to say, and then apologize. I am man enough to admit when I am wrong. I hope to find a friend in you after this is all over. However, I can't be a good man in everyone's book.

Mr. Mumby: You say that no reenactor would pay $1500 for a wound badge. I totally agree. However, what about the man who has a named tunic to one of the winners of such a wound badge, but who is a uniform collector and does not care for medals and badges except to complete a tunic. To him, I doubt $1500 would be a reach. The bottom line is that you shouldn't judge one collector's decision because it would not be your own. However, I do agree that no re-enactor would pay that kind of money for a reproduction for that last sliver of originality (how many reenactors dress up as a July 44 wound badge winner anyway).

Thanks to those who have spoken sensibly here. It is refreshing to find reason amidst such silliness. Pascal, Mike, and others. And you know, Brian S - those guys you call Lemmings. I'm sure they have collections that would leave any of us in awe.

[Pascal H.]

A reproduction is a copy and no pretence of being anything but a copy.

A fake is a copy made to deceive, it feigns, it pretends to be what it is not.

Pascal

[MH184]

'You can put a pig in a party dress but you can't stop it from grunting'


I'm amazed at the passive response and the condoning of such an item for an exceeding price tag.

A fake is a fake no matter how you dress it up, or convince yourself in justification. There is no big difference between a fake and reproduction........they are one in the same, seperated by a selling ploy of the approiate time and place; okay lets see this badge engraved with 'quality reproduction.'

This badge is a pretense, fascimile, imitation a fraud........not even determined by it's value in weight of metal.

Don't take this as contentious, I mean no insult to anyone; so please forgive my response: But I wonder if it was not for the respected Craig selling this badge would you condone it even as a fake.

Far from it being my place to judge the prices or actions of others but really?


Kind regards and respectfully yours,


Marcus

[Pieter Verbruggen]

....first of all, i cannot find the picture of this badge on Graig's site?

So I cannot give my opinions if this is realy a good or avarage copy.
If it is so good as stated here on the forum with an exact copy of the case I can understand someone is willing to pay this price(although I find it rather high...but I can follow Graigs points)as a space filler.
These 20 juli badges are among the rarest of all badges. They are not yust a wound badge but they carry probably one of (to me for sure) the biggest historical charismas with them.
An original is virtually unobtainable. The ones that comes from time to time for sale are practicly always the same badges changing from collection to collection.
I'm not a space filler guy but in this case I can understand collectors in buying a copy to fill up the gap. If you want to pay $1.500,00 for a perfect cased one is not so rediculous to me.
Pieter.

[Tom M]

Hello Craig. It's a shame our first interaction is a confrentation. Yes you are right on a winner of the July wound badge and I dearly hope you well sell to someone reasonable enough to have it in the correct context.

Pascal, this could go on all day. I'll count myself out

Cheers,

[Brian S]

Craig, trust me, I am not easily awed.

However, your reference to being 'awed' in connection with high prices and 'perfect' items such as those on your site is clearly an unabashed marketing statement. "Buy from me and your friends will be awed."

We are in a period of inflated prices. A period where people are getting their egos stroked by posting their recent expensive award. That's not collecting, it's just unseemly. But the 'joy' of showing off will soon be diminished by the Visa bill. And once the 'joy' of posting has so quickly worn off by the next guy's brag, the unmitigated desire to push that purchase button will be replaced by a little more common sense.

Reality economics Craig, versus textbook ecnomics.

Add it all up to the several hundred collectors pushing those buttons and the prices will be more and more difficult to achieve by you Craig.

And by all the posts here, the winds of change are blowing quickly up the skirts of prices like the one on that 'fake' wound badge.

[Pascal H.]

I want to thank you all for posting your opinions on the reproduction <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:date Year="1944" Day="22" Month="7">22 July 1944</st1:date> Wound Badge. I am however under the impression that this is getting more and more towards a personal pro and contra posting.

I explicitly want to ask you to stay on the topic of the <st1:date Year="1944" Day="22" Month="7">22 July 1944</st1:date> Wound Badge.

Thank you,
Pascal