Why I disagree....

[SJP]

vet items

I have picked several items over the years from Vets but I realized it means little when selling an item to descriminating collector.If it cant stand on its own ,forget it.Cheers Steve

[keifer kahn]

Bubbling.

In my experience it occurs in basically in two ways.
1)the zink under the finish deterioates and causes the finish to lift or "bubble".
Not a good condition for any badge to have.People seem to think its a "period bonus"but is corrosion,pure and simple.Push a needle into one of these bubbles and all you will find beneath the surface will be zincrot.



2)the bubbling like Jos,s example shows is in effect in the finish itself.Sometimes the temperatures of the curing ovens was too high and the finish "bubbled" due to extreme temperatures.This bubbling of finish is particulary notable on russian front medals.

[Frank Heukemes]

Thanks Keifer!

In contrast to what you described, I described and what Jos showed (also bubbling to me!), MGN´s badge clearly shows PARTICLES of different sizes and SHAPES (not just round but also oblong) trapped under the finish of the reverse. Something I have not seen on any original badge yet and which can be found on some fakes. Maybe just a minor point in the general discussion, but not to be neglected.

[keifer kahn]

Hi Frank,

I agree the bubbling effect on that badge is strange.The effect looks artificial.
I own and have owned many badges with varying levels of zink disease.From heavily deterioated ground dug and bunker finds, to badges suffering from simply poor storage deterioation.Its definately not a natural effect caused through environment.It looks too "forced".

As for bubbling through "curing heat",it doesnt look correct either.
Bubbles that occur in finish through heat may differ in size and pattern of displacement but certainly should all be round.They shouldnt be oblong.Bubbles caused by heat shouldnt have shear sides as well.The whole thing reminds me of paint with gravel mixed in.
Jos,s badge on the otherhand is typical of "over heat" .The bubbles vary in size but all look rounded in the way they have formed and have a fairly soft look to them, in comparison to the "gravel" finish on the first badge.

[Jeff V]

Where does the rough finish on the reverse of RK numbered gab's fit in the above two possibilities?

jeff

[MGN]

The buddling effect, has nothing to do with this badge! As you state storage and where it was all these years plays a role. This badge was almost stored properly. Why do I say almost? Well it seems that it oxidized becasue the finish on the eagle is 90% gone, and there is evidence of oxidation on the back between eagle and wreath, something you cannot see in the photos.

You say you have seen this type and that type, Then please tell us, Should all badges have buddling on the back according to you? What draws both of you guys to this conclusion?

Can you understand that since the badge is produced by someone else and IS NOT the same elemintal material as other badges it will have a different finish?

It seems that you know a bit more than me on badges, so with your vast knowledge and experience you must have seen a late war badge with a rough finish>?

[keifer kahn]

MGN,

The problem with posting any item is that any opinion is based on the photos provided.
Frank and myself are not out to rubbish your item,nor do anything but give you our opinion.
Of course ,not all zink badges badges will get bubbling.I dont see where i actually said that.
What i meant was that if a badge does get bubbling,it should look a certain way.
I know frank would also say that not all zink badges get bubbling as well.
Zink bubbling is caused by many factors,which all have to be present for the condition to occur.Which include environment,the type of zink alloy also the type of top finish.Also wear to the top finish is another contributing factor.
I am not going into a heavy description of the process as i have covered this in other threads but certainly for the unique process(or deterioation,if you wish to look at that way)to occur all the contributing elements have to be present.
Due to the simple fact that not all badges will have all of the factors present or happen during their existence,means that not all zink badges get bubbling.

As for bubbling through curing or oven baking,this again is a subjective problem with out any consistency in regards to how often it happened.
Heat resistance of the laqeur finish used is one reason.The consistency of the laqeur batches varied.Especially with the replacement of superior materials with inferior materials to ensure batch amounts were kept available.Brennlak was continually diluted by lowering metal content and increasing laqeur volume.This lowered the quality of finish on badges and is evidenced by a lot of badges finishes having such poor durability.there are the other factors as well,as base metal absorption but they are covered in other threads.
Bubbling was also caused by the simple application of too much heat to speed up the drying process.
Once again the consistency of this type of bubbling varies.
As for kriegsmetall .,I have several badges made from it .Apart from a slightly coarser texture and its ability to go almost black when oxidised,it still doesnt resemble the pics .Kriegsmetall is simply zink with higher lead content than the earlier zink alloys,with other additives to bulk it out.In its non oxidised form ,apart from its more slate gray colour ,it still looks like any other zink.Even in corroded or oxidised form,it doesnt resemble the pics you show.


Any how,
My opinions are based on what i see.
If i see what i think is good ,i say so.
If i see what i think is bad ,i say so.
It makes it very hard to comment if the person appears to only tolerate "positive" comments.

[Frank Heukemes]

MGN,

The essence of this is very simple but I already know you will not like it. There are two ways a finish on zinc can bubble. This goes theoretically for ANY maker´s badge, but it can be observed that finishes of certain makers are more likely to develop bubbles than others. Your badge´s "bubbling" does not fall into any of those categories:

1) chemical reaction over the decades causing air to be trapped under finish creating bubbles
2) overheating the finish during producution causing smaller, harder bubbles (see Jos´example)

Why does your badge´s "bubbling" not fit into any of the two possible categories? Because what you have are no bubbles, you have particles of different shapes caught under the finish or rather mixed in with the finsih. This cannot be observed on ANY original badge, but on several fake badges trying to imitate bubbling. And no, it is not in the metal, this is not a feature of Kriegsmetall at all.

I agree that if we would look at your badge in a very theoretical way, the impression it makes is quite good overall. It just does not compare to contemporary and proven Juncker originals. BUT the artificially applied bubble effect is rather disturbing. Maybe you can deliver a good close up of the reverse with a focus on a section with the "bubbles". It would be great to see them really up close.

[MGN]

Frank and Keifer,
Thanks for the explanation on the bubbling, I wasn't aware of it all that much. If it would be easy can you please post what a genuine kreigsmetal finish on a badge should look like? Just to compare the two.

Frank,
You say that the badge doesn't campare to the Juncker originals. Just so I am clear, Are you talking about the front of the badge of the back? Or the whole badge is off?

Keifer,
Sorry to trouble you again, but where does this badge fit into your theory?
http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...ad.php?t=78098

[Willi Z.]

Here is another.

[Willi Z.]

...

[keifer kahn]

Hi MGN,

The photos in the thread show the bubbling much better.
This badge is typical of postwar production utilising left over war stocks of metal.Many badges were produced during the occupation to provide souvenirs for occupation troops.This particular badge was obtained in 1949 and for all intent purposes was probaly bubble free when it was purchased.Then again the bubbling could be "heat"induced during the finish,and would of been evident at time of purchase.I cant tell from the pictures.It could be either.

Any bogus badge made after may 45 , made out of original zink ,will ,if exposed to or have all the factors that encourage bubbling end up with it.Its fairly common knowledge that badges up till the introduction of the denazification laws of 1949 were still produced in germany.Austria wasnt covered by the laws and was able to continue production unabeited .A lot of those would of been made with wartime zink.
One major difference between post war occupation period produced badges and wartime originals is not so much the base metal but the durability and strength of the hinge and catch assemblies.Original badges needed to have sturdy hardware as they had to be worn on combat tunics. Souvenir pieces only had to be facsimilie,s.Basically good enough to fool the buyer.A GI buying any german award wasnt going to wear it,nor would he know the difference between a genuine and a bogus,let alone pick out incorrect hinges and catches.
Kriegsmetall.
There is a wound badge at the collectors guild that shows exactly what you would expect to see .
Goto the wound badge section for "deutsches heer".
Item H68051/silver wound badge/Steinhauer and luck.
The closeup of the catch and hinge show the texture varies very little from other zink alloys.The front and rear shot show the almost black colour this crude zink takes on .

[MGN]

OK Keifer,
I now understand what you are saying about the badge.

For the badge posted above, When I compare it to mine it almost matches up a few things are different, What are the origins of this badge?

Is it a new repro? Or a copy made after the war?