Cotton Twill backed Luftwaffe Eagle Opinions

[SMP]

Nice eagles, Jan. No'2 is very similar ( though not identical ) to photo #11.

I believe the nature of the blue, or blue/grey material is the crucial issue here. I have never seen a smock with an eagle like photo No'3.

That said , nothing is ever certain. If there is one out there, I know you are the man to find it

[Willi Z.]

Quick reply as well.

I don't believe the eagles we are discussing are either smock or flight suit eagles.

I think they are late wool replacement eagles to be worn on wool uniforms. We have already encountered them on wool overseas caps. The breast/ cap eagles, and trade badges are all the same. The same base fabric with that same "reinforcement mesh" on the back. NEVER seen on a smock eagle. And, I have yet to encounter one on a lightweight flight jacket. I think the flight suit eagles presented so far are not the same as the one which started the thread, or those I featured next to my smocks eagles. Or the one Jan provided as well.

Will provide close ups tomorrow evening.

[Jan43]

Steve I´m sorry to say the jacket isn´t mine, and thanks for the compliment, I hope I can live up to it .

Willi
I´m glad to hear that you´ve also have followed this eagle as much as I have.
Your theory could hold water if these were made in preperation for future replacements for wool eagles, and they just weren´t used before they the war was over.
One other thing that also speaks your favor are that(beware now it gets a little nerdy) this perticualy eagle pattern, which I call “funny beak” almost all the time turn up as wool backed, all though I have found a single GM backed, and a hbt backed, and a tropical tunic material backed eagle.
We must therefore take into consideration that these eagles are from one specific firm, that either makes this shift from wool or makes them for specific pieces of clothing. (I believe this firm could be Hermann Frank Berlin as the tropical tunic material backed eagle, are made together with a 4 pocket tropical tunic there and he also made flight clothing).

IMO I still think the modified rollars cutoff with this eagle could be original. also even if the back side on other gray cotton rayon backed are “dobblebacked”, as we also can see with GM eagles, some have, and some don´t.
I will wait until some more evidence turns up (eagles on uniforms/headgear) before deciding for sure.

Best Jan

[Willi Z.]

I understand what you are saying Jan, and I respect your thoughts.

Here are a few breast/ cap eagles, as well as a trade badge. I considetr all of these to be a very late wool replacement style of insignia.

Many, but certainly not all, smock eagles are backed with a fabric layer. Like tropical tunic eagles.

[Willi Z.]

While I am looking at eagles, here are 3 cotton twill variations. Not encountered on smocks (to date) and not IMO the later style of eagle. Likely to be for the lightweight flight jacket.

[Jan43]

Hi Willi
Sorry for the long delay in answering, but I was tied up.

You have me torn willi as you reasoning are quit reasonable. And I can not claim to have much knowledge on these, so I´ll let you take the lead on this one, but after giving it a lot of thoughts, I will though lean a little over to what Steve very wisely said “ the nature of the blue, or blue/grey material is the crucial issue here” as I can´t seem to shake the feeling that these were made for a specific garment, some kind of blue/gray light weight flying jacket. I also agree with you on these last eagles you showed, that they also were intended for these jackets.

I still though maintain that I can´t see anything wrong with the modified rollers cutoff with this eagle on it, but it will as always be very interesting to see what turns up in the future, please let me know if some of you find something new concerning this, so I can eat my words

Best Jan

[Willi Z.]

Hi Jan,

How does the presence of cap eagles and trade badges fit into your thought it is for some kind of specific garment? None of the other styles of eagles (smock, HBT, flight suit, etc, etc) have matching cap eagles and trade badges.

Best,
Willi

[Jan43]

Hi Willi

No you´re right as I said that you´re reasoning makes perfectly sense, and that´s why I said you´re probably right, and with that being said, if you ARE right and these are replacements for wool eagles, then why shouldn´t they turn up on latewar jumpsmocks, as wool eagles does?? It´s not that long ago that we didn´t believe this, but several have turned since, for example the ´44dated splinter from Brandenburg Kleiderfabrik, the same year as the modified rollers print jumpsmock and the before mentioned jumpsmock with eagle cutoff are from.
So maybe it all fits nicely together after all.

Best Jan

[Willi Z.]

Jan, a wool eagle on a jump smock is an exception. Mainly on splinter smocks, which appear to have not been made after early to mid 1944. We see wool eagles on GD jackets in splinter as well.

We have always believed wool eagles on splinter smocks. I have one '42 dated. Have seen them on a couple of green smocks as well.

How does the cap and trade badge fit in???

[Jan43]

Hi Willi

As the earliest I´ve seen modified rollers print fabric jumpsmock came already in August 1943, couldn´t a small amount of these have been fitted with a wool eagle replacements in a similar exception, not seen until yet??
and maybe later abandoned due to these eagles bad tendency to fraying on attachment, as seen on the cutoff, and the discarded the lot?

Well..They would fit in as there wool counterparts fits in with wool eagles, still as you said, used on wool garments and headgear.

I believe I´ve seen a couple of original wool eagles on sumpf also.
If wool eagles have been used so widely as you say, and accepted as smock eagles, then why shouldn´t these replacement for wool eagles not be accepted as well???

Best Jan

[Willi Z.]

Jan, I said wool eagles on smocks are an exception, not the norm.

You still refuse to respond to why we see cap eagles and trade badges in that same style of construction, and how that relates to this matter.

[Jan43]

Willi
Yes but we are discussing exceptions.

One of these wool eagles on a sumpfcamo jumpsmock happens to be from a well known jumpsmock maker Franz Weck Berlin, one out of only three makers who uses the special fabric “modified rollers” from 43 and 44 dated smocks.

And if my eyes aren´t deceive me, then the fabric on which this wool eagle is attached on, is the very same fabric, as the cutoff in question are made of, the colors surely are.

Circumstantial-evidence is like pearls on a string…at a time it will form a hole necklace.

If you look closely I did answer you. Here it is again “Well..They would fit in as their wool counterparts fits in with wool eagles, still as you said, replacing wool insignia on garments and headgear”.
Remember this is a follow up on you theory.

Best Jan
Wool backed eagle


“Replacing wool eagle”