Warning: session_start(): open(/var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74/sess_eee1fdb00152d456060609827e85d8e59a30c5e3c953460f, O_RDWR) failed: No space left on device (28) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Warning: session_start(): Failed to read session data: files (path: /var/cpanel/php/sessions/ea-php74) in /home/devwehrmacht/public_html/forums/includes/vb5/frontend/controller/page.php on line 71 Post-Crete jumps with weapons - Wehrmacht-Awards.com Militaria Forums
WW2Treasures

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Post-Crete jumps with weapons

Collapse
X
Collapse
 
  • Page of 4
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
Previous 1 2 3 4 template Next
    #1

    Post-Crete jumps with weapons

    Hello.
    All of us have heard that after the Battle of Crete it was decided to introduce new techniques in delivering the weapons to the battlefield.
    In some books we can see the pictures of the Lehr Batallion training the drops with the small arms attached to the parachute harness.
    Can someone explain what was the proper way to hold the weapon while exiting the aircraft? You can put an MP40 under your harness but what can you do with a K98 to ensure safe RZ opening and avoid any injuries upon opening which is quite hard?
    And also is there any evidence of German paras jumping with weapons on Sicily or Ardennes?
    I appreciate your help.
    Tags: None
    #2
    Hello Heinz,

    From veteran accounts I've read, they mentioned that they tried to jump with weapons as often as possible. Many veterans of Crete had horror stories of trying to survive without infantry weapons while trying to locate their jump canisters. There are many pictures that exist of men incorporating weapons into their gear as they're preparing to enplane. I don't have a scanner, unfortunately, so I am unable to upload some of these for you.

    I'm sure some of the other guys will be able to upload some shots for you showing examples of how they may have carried weapons into battle.

    Hope that helps,

    J-

    Comment

      #3
      Thank you for the reply. I have seen some pictures of FJ holding the guns attached to their harnesses. But my main question is about leaving the airplane safely. According to the jump technique one needs both hands to push himself out of the aircraft to ensure proper RZ opening. How can one do it holding a K98?

      Comment

        #4
        Originally posted by Heinz Steinkopf View Post
        According to the jump technique one needs both hands to push himself out of the aircraft to ensure proper RZ opening. How can one do it holding a K98?
        That counts for Ju52s only, but jumps where made out of other types as well.

        Also, you do not "push" yourself out by hands, the power to leave the aircraft comes from the legs.

        Comment

          #5
          Originally posted by Gran Sasso View Post
          That counts for Ju52s only, but jumps where made out of other types as well.

          Also, you do not "push" yourself out by hands, the power to leave the aircraft comes from the legs.
          Sorry, but have you tried to push yourself out of the aircraft with legs only without touching the door frame with the hands and without even a chance to help you with the hands? I have. Now my helmet knows how many rivets are there on the aircraft side
          To be serious, you are right. It really depends on the aircraft type. But there should have been some technique to jump from Tante Ju. And for RZ you should have a kind of horizontal body position for safe opening. And it is not very easy to control body position if you hold an MG42 in your hands

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Heinz Steinkopf View Post
            Sorry, but have you tried to push yourself out of the aircraft with legs only without touching the door frame with the hands and without even a chance to help you with the hands? I have. Now my helmet knows how many rivets are there on the aircraft side
            To be serious, you are right. It really depends on the aircraft type. But there should have been some technique to jump from Tante Ju. And for RZ you should have a kind of horizontal body position for safe opening. And it is not very easy to control body position if you hold an MG42 in your hands
            You got me wrong - of course you hold yourself with the hands. But as there is no power used by the arms to push you out, "just" holding with 2 hands, one with weapon, is not out of the world.

            And jumping out of a HE111 you just drop through the bomb-hatch, no need for your hands. You can hold whatever you want.

            So the RZ does NOT need an horizontal position. If you just drop, you just have to pack your RZ in a diff. way.

            Comment

              #7
              Heinz,

              As you said, I would think you would need all four limbs to successfully jump from a plane. I've not yet parachuted, so I can't really say for sure, but that seems to carry the most logic. Legs push, arms guide.

              As far as jumping with weapons and your specific question, I don't think the German chute design in WWII was ideal for jumping with weapons. Yes, the Germans did it, but it was by necessity more than anything else - to make up for some flaws in their parachuting doctrine.

              The photos I've seen of men preparing to jump with weapons has them strapped over their harness, stuffed into a protective canvas case. Mostly MP-40s. They are not holding them in their hands. It was tricky business, I'm sure, since the German instruction specified a makeshift roll upon landing for ideal safety.

              I'm pretty sure I've also seen shots of men stuffing both MP-40s and K-98s into their harness, but it's been a while, and I'd have to review numerous sources to be sure I'm just not remembering incorrectly. Seems like it would be dangerous, but trying to find weapon containers upon landing would not have been a favorable prospect.

              I have not seen pictures of men preparing to jump with light machine guns or fg-42s...but the jump into the Ardennes was rumored to have been equipped with decent numbers of the latter. Since surviving examples have been liberated from FJ's in the Ardennes, and both men and weapons containers were spread upwards of 50 miles (or more), my guess is that men jumped with them.

              Ultimately, given the lessons learned in earlier combat jumps, I'm sure later jumps saw men jumping with weapons as much as possible.

              J-

              Comment

                #8
                Originally posted by JasonA View Post
                both men and weapons containers were spread upwards of 50 miles (or more), my guess is that men jumped with them.
                A veteran once told me that one of the reasons that they were spread so wide was the JU52 pilots were drunk!

                Another veteran from Lehr Batl said many people broke ribs when they jumped with MPs tucked into their harness. For jumping (JU52) with a K98 the best option was to hold tight it in both hands and just dive out of the door. He said the momentum of following the guy in front meant you did not have to hold on before launch.

                Comment

                  #9
                  Here are some pictures from the book FJR3 - Eine Chronik in Bildern by Klaus J. Peters. Sorry for violating a little bit of copyright.
                  A guy with a K98 attached to the harness by a cord
                  Attached Files

                  Comment

                    #10
                    The weapon is hanging on the cord to avoid injury upon landing.
                    Attached Files

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Landing.
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Originally posted by David Fettes View Post
                        A veteran once told me that one of the reasons that they were spread so wide was the JU52 pilots were drunk!

                        Another veteran from Lehr Batl said many people broke ribs when they jumped with MPs tucked into their harness. For jumping (JU52) with a K98 the best option was to hold tight it in both hands and just dive out of the door. He said the momentum of following the guy in front meant you did not have to hold on before launch.
                        Russian paratroopers still break their ribs with AKS.
                        But still we cannot find any depiction of the exit. If you hold such a long weapon like a K98 in your hands you have quite a good chance to put it into the ropes since the position of the gun is not fixed and you cannot estimate the mutual trajectory of the ropes, your body and the rifle, IMO. There should have been some regulation.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Heinz - Perhaps there was some sort of regulation, but I don't know if or where it exists. Original doctrine didn't call for jumping with weapons, so they would have had to alter or amend original wartime protocol. All I know at this point is that soldiers did it - but I really enjoy the pics you posted. I have those references, but had forgotten those particular pics.

                          David - interesting comment about being drunk! That doesn't surprise me. Based on the various resources I've read, the whole thing was a disaster. Poorly trained men in horrible weather conditions trying to make a jump doesn't equate to much success. Why not throw a little drinking into the mix?

                          We'll never know...

                          J-

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JasonA View Post
                            Heinz - Perhaps there was some sort of regulation, but I don't know if or where it exists. Original doctrine didn't call for jumping with weapons, so they would have had to alter or amend original wartime protocol. All I know at this point is that soldiers did it - but I really enjoy the pics you posted. I have those references, but had forgotten those particular pics.
                            A good field for research. I would appreciate if someone could share some pics of FJ exiting the aircraft with weapons. I have heard that there was something in some Wocheschau reels but I was not able to find anything precious.

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Good discussion. I have seen some video from the jump into Sicily. Some photos as well. Jumping with weapons was very widespread during that campaign. I will check for photos and which video.

                              I knew a veteran who was in FJR10 and was part of a mortar team. He jumped with the mortar tube in his harness during training. He once jumped and it fell out. It was almost completely buried and he was punished for that.

                              I can ask another veteran of the 4th FJD next week when I see him.

                              My only experiences with weapons during a jump was a M16 in a jump bag strapped to my leg.
                              Willi

                              Preußens Gloria!

                              sigpic

                              Sapere aude

                              Comment

                              Previous 1 2 3 4 template Next

                              Users Viewing this Thread

                              Collapse

                              There is currently 0 user online. 0 members and 0 guests.

                              Most users ever online was 10,032 at 08:13 PM on 09-28-2024.

                              Working...
                              X