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**Mike Yokum** · 01-11-2009, 11:01 AM

Much better photos Mark. You can get even better results using natural light. Cloudy days are best. Light coming from the top using something white (a sheet of paper works great) at the bottom to reflect the light and you can get some really nice photos.

Unfortunately, the clear photos show a cast repro. Sorry. One sure test for cast items is to see if you can bend them with your fingers. The wreath will bend if it's cast. Just don't damage the piece if you intend to return it.

**helmuthunter** · 01-12-2009, 06:39 AM

I think it was a pretty valid comment Bill, you, i and mark all knowing this badge in hand and the seller behind it. At least now Macca can give it back to the seller for refund after finding out it isnt a real one, instead of its proof of originality just being who it came from, regards, John.

**macca007** · 01-15-2009, 08:43 AM

Btt

BTT.......

Any more comments guys? Thomas I'm hoping to hear back from you on this my friend.

Mark

**jambobbyb** · 01-15-2009, 10:09 AM

I think this is one of the first times i have ever not been able to make my own mind up on a piece, As Tom has rightly stated earlier this type of wreath and hardware is associated with FLL pabs pilots and paras, As John quite rightly points out the reverse is not crisp, However i owned a good FLL pilots badge where the reverse was just as "lumpy" as this one, Comparing the early war FLL examples posted in this thread isnt of much help when trying to determine the validity of this piece the answer lies in the latter war produced zinc pilots pabs and CCC's,
Based on these pictures i couldnt say one way or another over its originality however i wouldnt want it based on the replys as it would be a nightmare to sell on.

Originally posted by mbizy View Post

One sure test for cast items is to see if you can bend them with your fingers. The wreath will bend if it's cast. Just don't damage the piece if you intend to return it.

On a side note this is utter crap, Most good modern copys will do exactly what an original zinc piece would do "snap" This was only applicable when they were using substandard materials to cast with!

Below the 43 marked FLL 43 pab setup.

Attached Files

fll_pab_catch.jpg (41.6 KB, 186 views)

**macca007** · 01-15-2009, 04:10 PM

I tried the "bend test"..... it doesn't give. Not flimsy at all. Anymore and I risk "snapping" it in 2.

Cheers
Mark

**John Hodgin** · 01-15-2009, 04:27 PM

Mark, your additional photos provide much better detail, I'm leaning towards authentic. Would be more confident about the badge if that "crisp" detail was there.
Regards,
John

**Gerd W.** · 01-15-2009, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

, I'm leaning towards authentic. John

You´re leaning towards the right direction John

A few years ago I got a very crude and "cheap" made FLL style zinc para with exact the same set-up details (not exact, the hook was more standard FLL). It came with a late 1944 award certificate (cloth) and a bunch of pictures directly from the para vet.

However, 99,99% of all FLL repros will show some details which are complete different to the one Mark showed us.

**Militaria-Berlin** · 01-15-2009, 04:54 PM

I see evrybody harking on about cast wreaths. What you all seem to forget is that the original wreaths were most likely cast as well. I agree with Heinrich and Gerd, a good late war badge. I ha´ve seen this setup on Paras as well as other FLL badges as well.

After the treatment it had here though probably impossible to sell.

markus

**helmuthunter** · 01-16-2009, 06:49 AM

Thanks very much to all who have posted there knowledge on late war para badges, and there opinions on this one. I have no problems on eating my words on this badge from the facts that have been put forward. This is allways about the facts, and i have learnt a few things about late war para badges

Macca my friend you will be happy to know it looks like a good one. Regards, John.

**Thomas Durante** · 01-16-2009, 08:38 AM

Hi guys,

Sorry for the late reply macca, been really busy at work the last few days, which is a good thing

Anyway, thanks for the larger and clearer pics, it only confirms my earlier thoughts that this is an original para badge IMO. Just like FLL CCCs, I am quite certain that their later-war luft badges (made of zink) were die cast and that is why they look a little "grainy". But this is consistent with FLL's production, and can be seen on their CCCs, PABs, zink pilot badges, etc. Also, this hardware setup is definately known on FLL badges, albeit not as common as their block hinge and thick wire catches. Here are a few more examples of this hardware combination on FLL badges. Also note the very thin swastika on the Pilot badge, it is a common theme on FLL's LW badges, as well as the "blobby" rivets.

Tom

Attached Files

10-Frank.jpg (67.3 KB, 161 views)

**Thomas Durante** · 01-16-2009, 08:38 AM

p

Attached Files

11-Frank.jpg (119.2 KB, 161 views)

**John Hodgin** · 01-16-2009, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by schulzem View Post

After the treatment it had here though probably impossible to sell.

markus

Absolutely false! Am quite confident that many WA members would happily, and quickly, purchase this badge if they were they offered the chance!
John

**Thomas Durante** · 01-16-2009, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by John Hodgin View Post

Absolutely false! Am quite confident that many WA members would happily, and quickly, purchase this badge if they were they offered the chance!
John

I agree, many times after a discussion like this, the owner or seller will get a flood of emails with offers to buy. With good, experienced collectors like John and Gerd giving their opinions, it gives many collectors the confidence to buy something they would otherwise not be sure of on their own.

Tom

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