Unmarked Para badge.......HELP!

[heinrich66]

Imo a good FLL with variant setup

(and for those who ask, yes, i've seen and handled mor then one para badge )

[Thomas Durante]

I'm not a "guru" but I have owned several. Here are my reasons for saying it's a poor copy. The wreath, even in the blurry pics, is undoubtedly cast. Both the oak leaves and laurel leaves look NOTHING like any known originals. There is no definition to any aspect of the wreath. Then there's the eagle. Same reasons.
Sorry, it's simply no good IMHO.

That is simply NOT CORRECT, both wreath and eagle are an exact match to the Unknown Maker Para badges (most likely FLL). Are you saying that this type of para badge is a reproduction as well? This exact same wreath was also used on FLLs Pilot and P/O observer badges, so are those fake as well?

The hardware on the badge that started this thread is also known to have been used by FLL on their PABs, IABs, CCCs, Luft Flak badges, etc, so there is a certainly a precedent set with this maker.

Only much better, clearer photos and dimensions can help validate this badge, but it CANNOT just be dismissed as a reproduction because it "is unlike any known maker", that is just not correct IMO.

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

FLL reverse

[Thomas Durante]

FLL Pilot Observer, same exact wreath.

[Thomas Durante]

When banks teach employees how to spot counterfeits, they do not have them study the fakes, they study ONLY REAL examples.

That was good advice 10 years ago, but simply does not hold true today on III Reich badges. You also have to study the good fakes and have a database for those as well. No collector has seen EVERY badge out there, so when a new one comes "out of the woodwork" that no one has ever seen before, does that automaticaly make it a fake? Most likely, but there are few instances where originals were identified only a few years ago that no one every saw before (i.e., 1st pattern Juncker Para, Egg wreath Assmann Para, etc.).

However, many times when a new fake hits the market, it is ALMOST ALWAYS traceable to a known fake that has been around for a while. Only with a good database of the fakes as well, can one simply and completely proove that this "new badge, out of the woodwork" is just another progression of a fake. I have done this successfully in the past on several threads, where there was lively debate about the "merits" of the badge until I show several iterations of the fake badge from the past, usually with many spurious maker marks on it.

Also, with a good database of fakes, especially the excellent copies coming out from Carsten Staegemeir, you can identify his fakes. They are for all intents and purposes, EXACT copies. But, only with keeping track of his fakes, will you be able to tell that his Assmann Para badges are indeed well made copies that are just a progression of his earlier attempts: here is one to prove the point. This is a FAKE badge, that has fooled well experienced collectors in the past, not just the ones that have "had a few in their collection"!!!

Tom

[Thomas Durante]

Fake Assmann reverse

[John Hodgin]

Imo a good FLL with variant setup

Possibly, but the reverse does not show the degree of neatness and finish I expect on an FLL. The reverse is certainly not crisp like the reverse of IABs or CCCs by FLL. This is strongly verified, IMHO, by the ultra fine detail work illustrated on the badges Tom posted. Just look at that PO by FLL, the detail is incredible! I just do not see this kind of detail on the para that began this thread.

John

[heinrich66]

Hi John,

your points are well taken, but i believe that a good part of finish is lost to the quality of the pictures. And the reverse looks typically fll para to me.

Maybe a few clear pics would help us all out.....

[helmuthunter]

Hi Guys, thank you very much for your honest and detailed opinions on this thread, i will get my friend macca to post some better pics today so we can come to a conclusion. I do not know much about para badges at all, only a bad feeeling from the apparent lack of detail to this badge when ive held it in my hands, regards, John.

[Mike Yokum]

Point well taken Tom, but I still hold to my opinion on at least putting considerably more time into studying originals versus fakes.

The pictures you post Tom are not only MUCH clearer, but definitely show much finer quality and definition of detail associated with original pieces. The photos of the badge in question here, look to me (and better photos may prove me wrong) like the badge is at best cast from an original FLL. I hope for Mark's sake I'm all wet.

[macca007]

More pics coming.

Gentleman,

I will endeavour to provide more and BETTER pics tomorrow of this badge. The sooner we can all come to a conclusion the happier we will all be.

Thomas I'll be in touch about your request for my badge with respects to your project.

Thanks again everyone on this matter.

Mark

[Thomas Durante]

Point well taken Tom, but I still hold to my opinion on at least putting considerably more time into studying originals versus fakes.

Agreed!

As far as the pics, the ones I posted are clearer and that is why we need clearer shots of macca's, so we can actually compare the two. There have been many times where blurry, out of focue pictures on ebay have resulted in spectacular original badges once the buyer got the badge in hand. While I agree with John on the wreath details, the eagle looks really good to me and that is why I am inconclusive on it without better pics. Looking forward to them Macca, and thanks!

Tom

[macca007]

Pics

These should help a bit...... quite a few to come.

Mark

[macca007]

front again

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[macca007]

again

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