KRETA cuff title award document

[Frank Mills]

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[CSP]

Please go to the dev.wehrmacht-awards.com site and follow the trail to the article on KRETA documents (find it through campaign awards). May help answer your questions. It IS a fairly scarce award document.

Scott

[Frank Mills]

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[Eric Queen]

Frank,

Its really hard to say on prices anymore ( because some people who sell these have lost touch with reality lets say ), but I would think that a fair price for a Kretaband Urkunde ( a stand alone piece, not to anyone famous ) would be in the neighborhood of
$300 - $350.

EQ

[Frank Mills]

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[Rick Research]

The guy's NAME would help, Frank. If he was still alive in February 1945, as a paratrooper he would be listed in the reprint 1945 Hauptleute and up flying/air qualified/staff Luftwaffe Seniority List, with date of rank and maybe other information. Rick

[Willi Z.]

Hi Frank,

I agree with Eric......this are worth at best $350. I must have 8 or 9 by now that come with larger groupings. The key will be the name and the way the unit is typed out. Would be concerned if it is in fact to a "Hauptmann from a zug" as you mentioned. If he was in fact an officer on Kreta, it may not be tough to find out who he was. Reproductions of these are common.

Willi Zahn

[Frank Mills]

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[Eric Queen]

Frank,

I would be highly skeptical for a number of reasons:

1. Hagl was an Army Paratrooper Knights Cross winner

2. I have never seen or heard of a Kretaband document to a paratrooper dated from 1942 ( most all were dated 20.5.43 or 11.2.43 )

3. Hagl was not a Hauptmann until May 1943

4. If a unit is indicated, it should be his present unit ( at the time
the document is issued ) which in Hagl's case Stab/FJR3 not
2./FJR3 ( he was Zugfuhrer of 2./FJR3 only until 10.6.41 )

I would have my doubts.

EQ

[Frank Mills]

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[Rick Research]

Good thing we have people with the resources to do this sort of checking here!

Now if only we could do this live at shows!!!!.....

[Eric Queen]

Frank,

I did some more checking and found that A.HAGL was "officially" awared the Aermelband "KRETA" on May 20, 1943. This coupled with the fact that Hagl was not a Hauptmann when this document in question was supposibly issued can prety much ensure that this is not an original piece.

Regarding the dates of issue, although I personally have never seen one in "the flesh" which was dated prior to 1943, I found that some of these documents actually were awarded to Paratroopers in 1942. Of the ones that were awarded in 1942, most were awarded on either November 12th or 15th. Here is one from RK winner A.UHLIG dated Nov.15, 1942.



Frank,
If you have an image of this document why don't you send it to and I will post it here for everyone to take a look at.

EQ

[CSP]

What an informative thread. Rick : what's this Hauptleute 1945 reprint? Just for Luftwaffe?

The point to this thread is clear - that there is no substitute for doing one's research ahead of buying. What I have learned in collecting panzer and Grossdeutschland documents is that the more specialized the unit, the more it is faked. I would guess that Fallshirmjaeger documents are right up there at the top of fakes.

If the signature at the bottom, date, place of award, unit and recipient do not pass the common sense test, best to stay clear.
Scott

[Frank Mills]

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[Eric Queen]

Frank,

Thanks for sending the color copy. I received it in the mail today. I will post it here now for everyone to look at. IMHO there is little doubt that the piece is not original for the following reasons.

As I said before

1. Andreas HAGL was awarded the Kretaband on May 20, 1943, not December 10, 1942.

2. Hagl was not a Hauptmann until May 1943.

3. If a unit is indicated, it should be his present unit ( at the time
the document is issued ) which in Hagl's case should be z.b.V.Stab/FJR3 not 2./FJR3 ( he was Zugfuhrer of 2./FJR3 only until 10.6.41 )

In addition to the above historical problems

4. Every original document ( that I have ever seen. Correct me if I am wrong here guys ), has the words "Aermelband>KRETA<" in
maroon, NOT black. All fakes ( that I have seen ) have these words in black.
* compare with the one from Willi Peters below.

5. I don't like the stamp. Among other things, the "g" in Fliegerkorps is backwards.

Looking forward to hearing other opinions. Willi, what are your thoughts?

[img]http:members.aol.com:/efqueen/k1[/img]

[img]http:members.aol.com:/efqueen/k2[/img]