Calling all CKL/ckl para helmet owners.

[eubank]

Hopefully within this long period some new knowledge has or can come to light.

One thing I have noticed about the ckl 4054 lot helmets with the thick rim/ lip is that there seem to be a lot of them about relative to the other m38 lot numbers. It's a lot number that really does crop up again and again ( I do keep an eye on m38 lot numbers that I see) and I don't think it's just the same bunch of helmets circulating. It suggests to me that within any "lot number batch" there was not a standard number made, and more particularly that there were a heck of a lot of lot 4054's.

Giorgio posted up years ago what appeared to be a 4054 that did not have the thick rim. The marking was faint though ( although that too is common with these) so perhaps it wasn't quite.
P.s in this "volume theory" I have already tried to discount for the fact that they are more memorable/ unusual to begin with.

[WalterB]

I have three late war FJs with the following specifications:

1. CKL 4242, no decal, 2 vented aluminum bolts, 2 slotted aluminum bolts. Friction clip chintsrap (missing the snap) with an RB numbered Schuberth Werk, Branischweig liner.

2. ckl 4054, no decal, 4 slotted aluminum bolts. Late war gripper chinstrap with an RB numbered Werner Zahn liner.

3. ckl 4054, no decal, 4 steel bolts. Late war gripper chinstrap with an RB numbered Werner Zahn liner.

No inference should be made on the predominance in my collection of late war FJ helmets with 4054 lot numbers since I have intentionally sought them out.

Steve, I strongly believe that CKL are earlier produced than ckl. I think if we gather information and compare bolts, etc., we will see that this hypothesis is correct. For example, I have never, ever seen a CKL with steel bolts, yet we have seen plenty of ckl with steel bolts.

Of interest to me is that the late war FJ helmets I describe above show, in my opinion, the progression of production: the helmet in item 1 above has capital CKL and combination of 2 vented / 2 solid aluminum bolts and friction chintrap, then the later produced FJ helmet in item 2 above shows 4 slotted aluminum bolts and late war gripper chinstrap. The FJ helmet in item 3 is (I presume) later assembled than the one in item 2 above since it has the 4 steel bolts.

[SMP]

I have three late war FJs with the following specifications:

1. CKL 4242, no decal, 2 vented aluminum bolts, 2 slotted aluminum bolts. Friction clip chintsrap (missing the snap) with an RB numbered Schuberth Werk, Branischweig liner.

2. ckl 4054, no decal, 4 slotted aluminum bolts. Late war gripper chinstrap with an RB numbered Werner Zahn liner.

3. ckl 4054, no decal, 4 steel bolts. Late war gripper chinstrap with an RB numbered Werner Zahn liner.

No inference should be made on the predominance in my collection of late war FJ helmets with 4054 lot numbers since I have intentionally sought them out.

Steve, I strongly believe that CKL are earlier produced than ckl. I think if we gather information and compare bolts, etc., we will see that this hypothesis is correct. For example, I have never, ever seen a CKL with steel bolts, yet we have seen plenty of ckl with steel bolts.

Of interest to me is that the late war FJ helmets I describe above show, in my opinion, the progression of production: the helmet in item 1 above has capital CKL and combination of 2 vented / 2 solid aluminum bolts and friction chintrap, then the later produced FJ helmet in item 2 above shows 4 slotted aluminum bolts and late war gripper chinstrap. The FJ helmet in item 3 is (I presume) later assembled than the one in item 2 above since it has the 4 steel bolts.

Thanks Walter,


We all know helmets get made from the parts bin, and bolts are easily replaced, but I like the idea that ckl came after CKL, because of the steel bolts.


So , how do you feel about decals on CKL/ckl helmets ? I am of the opinion that the ckl 1315 SD listed in #4 probably had a post-war added eagle.

[WalterB]

Thanks Walter,


We all know helmets get made from the parts bin, and bolts are easily replaced, but I like the idea that ckl came after CKL, because of the steel bolts.


So , how do you feel about decals on CKL/ckl helmets ? I am of the opinion that the ckl 1315 SD listed in #4 probably had a post-war added eagle.

I would be wary of any decal in any ckl. Best case scenario, it would have been field applied and such application would be very, very rare imho.

With respect to CKL, since I believe they are an earlier production than ckl, I guess it might be possible, although I do not personally recall seeing any SD CKL. Worth exploring, but my hunch is that probably not.

[John Hodgin]

Thanks Walter,


We all know helmets get made from the parts bin, and bolts are easily replaced, but I like the idea that ckl came after CKL, because of the steel bolts.


So , how do you feel about decals on CKL/ckl helmets ? I am of the opinion that the ckl 1315 SD listed in #4 probably had a post-war added eagle.

Hi Steve,

Have a ckl 68 with NO lot number, weird. With solid slotted aluminum bolts, no eagle of course.

Another ckl 68 lot 4054, with mixed aluminum bolts, both solid slotted and vented slotted. Camo'ed, so no evidence on the eagle but bet it never had one.

And FYI, have a ET 68 with solid slotted steel bolts and an eagle.

[SMP]

I would be wary of any decal in any ckl. Best case scenario, it would have been field applied and such application would be very, very rare imho.

.

I agree, and I think we were all fooled by this one


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240529


Shame that there was no close ups of the decal, because I believe it would have told us a lot. I know Gareth has since sold it, so there is no point asking him to post more pictures,

[Sergey K.]

I agree, and I think we were all fooled by this one


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240529


Shame that there was no close ups of the decal, because I believe it would have told us a lot. I know Gareth has since sold it, so there is no point asking him to post more pictures,

At first view it looks like been there for a long time.. but I see some red flags on this decal even from these pix..You right, of course, close ups would tell all.

[Sergey K.]

Field applied eagle is possible of course but all we are should be very careful with such examples.
I have several CKL in different config and all were period assembled.

CKL 71 4004 , spanner bolts, RBN liner and very late war chinstrap with Prym snap
CKL 68 55...3 , alu vented bolts,RBN liner camo, late war buckle straps

CKL 68 404... only the one seel slotted bolt exist, late Muller zinc liner , early Prym chinstrap , camo
No one of them have any evidence of decal present..

[eubank]

Very interesting.
A wider point, but do you think there was or was not any uniformity in numbers produced within a given lot, noting as said that there seem to be such a disproportionate amount of 4054's that it seems this lot was produced in particularly high numbers ?

[WalterB]

I agree, and I think we were all fooled by this one


http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=240529


Shame that there was no close ups of the decal, because I believe it would have told us a lot. I know Gareth has since sold it, so there is no point asking him to post more pictures,

Yes, based on those pictures (i.e., not very clear or defined), it would be easy to overlook the details of the decal, especially since the shell, liner and chinstraps look authentic and in terrific condition. With the benefit of hindsight, the decal does appear to be missing some details of authentic decals.

[John Hodgin]

I see some red flags on this decal even from these pix..You right, of course, close ups would tell all.

Please elaborate Sergey, just looked at the photos again and am missing the red flags. Regrettably have fallen behind on keeping up with newer fakes.

[Willi Z.]

I think the decal on the one above, from those photos, is ok. Close-ups are needed.

As usual I will have a problem with drawing absolute conclusions with a small sample size. Just in case we go down that road... 1000 would be statistically meaningful.

Too many variables with late war helmets. Like untouched "ckl"s with aluminum liner bands, etc.

Will look at my helmets shortly.

[Willi Z.]

I didn't have very good results checking my helmets. All my mint CKL/ckl helmet are gone now because of other collecting interests.

Too many others have wire/ nets in the way to even see the ET markings, let alone any CKL/ckl.

What I could record:

ckl - 4x4x, slotted steel bolt camo, no decal, mid-war aluminum liner assembly.

ckl - 39x1, slotted, ventilated aluminum bolts, no decal, zinc liner band.

Must be either CKL/ckl but under liner band, too much wire, 50xx, slotted steel camo, decal, zinc liner assembly.

[John Hodgin]

I will have a problem with drawing absolute conclusions with a small sample size. Just in case we go down that road... 1000 would be statistically meaningful.

Too many variables with late war helmets. Like untouched "ckl"s with aluminum liner bands, etc.

Certainly agree. Back when Steve created the thread about chin strap snaps I was quite surprised that the majority of chinstraps on M38s in my collection have filigree snaps. Have only one chinstrap with a stocko snap and the remaining are Prym. But as Willi stated, this means virtually nothing.

And one of the ckl helmets does have an aluminum liner band with maker marked leather liner.

[Sergey K.]

Please elaborate Sergey, just looked at the photos again and am missing the red flags. Regrettably have fallen behind on keeping up with newer fakes.

Hi John, the biggest red flag is that decal placed on ckl helmet
and based on that thread it was 13 years ago, it's not so modern job

I didn't say it's obviosly fake decal but just see some points which certainly don't like .

for elaboration, just take a look and compare these areas on your authentic examples... there are some more but check even these..

The main trouble like already been said collectors may be fooled when all parts original and untouched and miss some important details especially if the item not directly in hands.

As for field applied decals I have ground dug helmet with eagles from both sides..I'd say that some vet or collector applied second decal after the war if it wasn't dug up by myself.