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Pz.Jg.Ausb.Abt. 4 / Pz.Jg.Kp.1276 / Pz.Jg.Abt. z.b.V. "G"

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    #1

    Pz.Jg.Ausb.Abt. 4 / Pz.Jg.Kp.1276 / Pz.Jg.Abt. z.b.V. "G"

    I was wondering if someone could shine some light on the legitimacy of these units and their progression for this soldier as I find myself running into road blocks as most of these units were poorly documented from my understanding.

    Working backwards Helmut served in;

    Pz.jg.abt.z.b.v G aka z.b.v. bock lang pankow aka Heeresgruppe G

    before that

    Pz.Jg.Komp. 1276
    -What's important to note is that 1276 existed in a and b format fighting on separate fronts Pz.Jg.Komp.1276 was made up of parts of the Pz.Jg.Ausb.Abt. 4. which is important later

    before that

    Pz.jg.ausb.abt.1
    -This is where things get a little fuzzy and am finding difficulty finding information. In the second photo under the kompanie bar is it written STM 5?

    before that

    Pz.jag.ers.u.ausb.abt.4
    -I'm finding different variations of this unit or similar but with different variations of ersatz, abteilung...ect

    before that

    Div.fus.btl 349
    Which was destroyed in ukraine in 1944 and recieved replacements from Pz.jag.ausb.abt.4 which corresponds with many of the units above and his first field unit?

    If anyone has any expertise in this area it would be of great help as the literature gap is very apparent.
    Attached Files
    Tags: None
    #2
    this is the only trustworthy timeline 1944 on as most stamps are faded or concern earlier units.
    Attached Files

    Comment

      #3
      I can not find a connection between Pz.Jäg.Ausb.Abt 1 and Pz.Jäg.Kp. 1276, however seeing as the Kriegsstammrollennummer is the same for this all three units it is safe to assume they are the same unit re-designated.

      Additionally I think it is Stug or Stu 5 and not STM 5.

      Here is mention of 1276a and b:
      http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...bteilung%20276

      Also s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. z.b.V. G was army troops with 82 Armee Korps from 13.3.1945 under Heeresgruppe G:
      http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...XIIKorps-R.htm

      /Ian
      Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

      Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

      Comment

        #4
        The Feldpost number doesn't really hold any clues....

        06752
        25.10.1944. Stab, Stabs- u. 1. u. 3. Kompanie Panzerjäger-Abteilung 276 und Sturmgesch.Abteilung 1276,
        17.11.1944. Stab, Stabs- u. 1.-3. Kompanie Panzerjäger-Abteilung 276,
        8.2.1945. Stab, Stabs- u. 1.-3. Kompanie und Panzerjäger-Kompanie 1276 b. d. Panzerjäger-Abteilung 276,
        29.4.1945. Stab, Stabs- u. 1.-3. Kompanie Panzerjäger-Abteilung 276.

        /Ian
        Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

        Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

        Comment

          #5
          Thank you Ian,

          You've certainly given me more leads to chase down burning the midnight oil. Any ideas what stu 5 would indicate?

          Warmest Regards,
          Brett

          PS It would appear that 1276(b) would turn into 1180 as part of the 180th Infantry division which deviates from the the given timeline. It's also important to note that panzer jag. units went through a numbering transformation where soldier units retained their three digit 276 but panzer units would be recognized as a four digit number X276 = 1276 but in saying that in order for this soldier to have been in a storm battalion would it not be stamped as such?

          Originally posted by Ian Jewison View Post
          I can not find a connection between Pz.Jäg.Ausb.Abt 1 and Pz.Jäg.Kp. 1276, however seeing as the Kriegsstammrollennummer is the same for this all three units it is safe to assume they are the same unit re-designated.

          Additionally I think it is Stug or Stu 5 and not STM 5.

          Here is mention of 1276a and b:
          http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...bteilung%20276

          Also s.Pz.Jäg.Abt. z.b.V. G was army troops with 82 Armee Korps from 13.3.1945 under Heeresgruppe G:
          http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...XIIKorps-R.htm

          /Ian
          Last edited by Beattie-B; 02-25-2017, 01:29 PM. Reason: additional info

          Comment

            #6
            Originally posted by Beattie-B View Post
            Thank you Ian,

            You've certainly given me more leads to chase down burning the midnight oil. Any ideas what stu 5 would indicate?

            Warmest Regards,
            Brett

            PS It would appear that 1276(b) would turn into 1180 as part of the 180th Infantry division which deviates from the the given timeline. It's also important to note that panzer jag. units went through a numbering transformation where soldier units retained their three digit 276 but panzer units would be recognized as a four digit number X276 = 1276 but in saying that in order for this soldier to have been in a storm battalion would it not be stamped as such?
            Stu 5 probably means 5th (sturmgeschutz) kompanie.
            I'm collecting anything related to the towns Castricum and Bakkum during WWII.
            Also soldbucher from 116pzdiv. And 1944-1945 eastfront pockets, kampfgruppe and Oder front.
            My website: Gotrick.nl

            Comment

              #7
              Originally posted by Rick Admiraal View Post
              Stu 5 probably means 5th (sturmgeschutz) kompanie.
              Thanks Rick, I did a bit of searching and if this is true there appears to be two divisions that had a "5. Kompanie" one being the 116. Panzer Division and the other being 2. Although both would serve in the Ardennes 2. Panzer Division was part of But I would assume you would see more evidence in the form of stampings or written units suggesting this.
              (http://www.stugiii.com/stugunits/panzertruppen.html)

              I was wondering if Pz.Jäg.Abt. z.b.V. "G" had any relation to a Pz.Jg.Kp. Gekeler or if the G was strictly due to its operation in army group G . The only issue being that Gekeler is supposed to have been made up of II/2 Panzer Abteilung but there is so little info on this unit.

              Comment

                #8
                It appears I have hit a wall for now but if anyone needs what info has been gathered on this unit I will provide some screen shots of what I have.
                Attached Files

                Comment

                  #9
                  last screen shot. I find it strange that the reports vary in what was actually fielded, everything from StG-III to StG-IV and for good measure jp38t's
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Beattie-B; 03-07-2017, 09:37 AM.

                  Comment

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Beattie-B View Post
                    Thanks Rick, I did a bit of searching and if this is true there appears to be two divisions that had a "5. Kompanie" one being the 116. Panzer Division and the other being 2. Although both would serve in the Ardennes 2. Panzer Division was part of But I would assume you would see more evidence in the form of stampings or written units suggesting this.
                    (http://www.stugiii.com/stugunits/panzertruppen.html)
                    Why those Divisions for the 5.Kompanie?
                    I read 5.(Stug)/Panzer-Jäger-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 1.
                    http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...abwAbtErs1.htm
                    I'm collecting anything related to the towns Castricum and Bakkum during WWII.
                    Also soldbucher from 116pzdiv. And 1944-1945 eastfront pockets, kampfgruppe and Oder front.
                    My website: Gotrick.nl

                    Comment

                      #11
                      2nd Division and 116 Division were the only two that had a 5th Kompanie of assault guns but now I see what you meant initially.


                      Originally posted by Rick Admiraal View Post
                      Why those Divisions for the 5.Kompanie?
                      I read 5.(Stug)/Panzer-Jäger-Ausbildungs-Abteilung 1.
                      http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...abwAbtErs1.htm

                      Comment

                        #12
                        Stu G Stu 5 - Correction of my previous statement - on second look, it does look like a 5
                        Last edited by naxos; 03-08-2017, 11:07 PM.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Thanks Naxos,

                          With that in mind does it still stand that this soldier fought in a Stug unit considering the St.Kp.1276?

                          Regards,
                          Brett


                          Originally posted by naxos View Post
                          Stu G Stu 5 - Correction of my previous statement - on second look, it does look like a 5

                          Comment

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Beattie-B View Post
                            Thanks Naxos,

                            With that in mind does it still stand that this soldier fought in a Stug unit considering the St.Kp.1276?

                            Regards,
                            Brett
                            Sorry, I don't know off hand

                            Comment

                              #15
                              Hi all !

                              Very interesting Soldbuch and unit. Thanks for showing !

                              Most likely sequence of units (in my oppinion):

                              After his training, sent to field with Marsch-Kp. Pz.Jg.Ausb.Abt. 4.
                              (Very likely to France, for the reformation of the 384. Inf.Div.)
                              He first served there in the 4.Schw./AA 384 which was the heavy Schwadron.
                              (Equipped with 4 le. Inf.Gesch., 3 s.Pak).

                              AA. 384 remained in France with some other 384.ID units, when the rest of the division was sent to Russia.
                              The units that remained behind, formed the core of the 349. ID from 25.11.43 onward, with AA 384 beeing
                              redesignated to Div.Füs.Btl. 349.
                              http://lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Glie...onen/349ID.htm

                              349. ID was sent to the East in April 1944 and was destroyed there.
                              At what time he returned to his replacement unit is not clear to me, from the entries you showed.
                              Also the connection to Pz.Jg.Ausb.Abt. 1 is unclear (why is this listed as field unit ?!).

                              For the next steps, I can at least provide a theory :
                              The link in Lexikon-der Wehrmacht that Ian found, is most likely based on this discussion here :
                              http://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/in...2251#post22251

                              From that, it seems, that there were in total 3 Pz.Jg. companies with designation "1276":
                              The first one (1276) was first intended for 276. VGD (and should be equipped with Jagdpz.38 (!)),
                              but its formation order was cancelled on 24.11.44.
                              (Instead two companies with designation 1276a (equipped with 10 JagdPz. IV) and 1276b (10 StuG III) were raised.)
                              It seems clear, that 1276a was incorporated into 276. VGD, while 1276b ended up with 180. ID.

                              My suggestion, from the above facts (and from what follows) is:
                              that your soldier was one of the men of the first Pzjg. 1276 Kp. (trained on Jagdpz. 38).

                              As Ian already pointed out, it seems he always stayed in the same unit (only with different designations).
                              Therefore, he was likely in one of the 3 cos. of Pz.Jg.Kp. Bock, Lang or Pankow (all 3 cos. equipped with
                              Pzjg. 38), which were sent to the West, end of Nov. 44 (please scroll to the end of the link, Nov. 44 distributions):
                              http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Pz38.htm

                              Under HGr. G, all 3 of these companies acted as independent unit (Heerestruppe) under changing commands
                              (most times in the area of 1. Armee). End of January 45, HQ of PzJg.Abt. 708 and the 3 Pzjg. companies Bock,
                              Lang and Pankow were formed into Pz.Jg.Abt. "G". In Feb. 1945, it was decided that this unit should
                              stay together and should not be split and incorporated into different field-divisions (see attachment).

                              According to several overviews on the Panzerlage West, Pz.Jg.Abt. z.b.V. "G" is clearly different from
                              PzJg. Kp. Gekeler, as "PzJg. Kp. Gekeler" is always listed as a separate unit.

                              Cheers,

                              Archi
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

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