U-106 Wehrpass

[Nordfront]

Feel free to discuss this: http://http://dev.wehrmacht-awards.com/forums/showthread.php?t=833168

I bought this particular WP from Thomas Huss few years ago. He said that even if those award entries look odd, it came from a good source. As far as I know Huss is pretty good when it comes to U-boat stuff and I don't see how the original owner managed to do 5 war patrols on a U-boat without any awards. I have a hard time to believe that no awards were entered on it atleast after he was KIA and they sent it to his family.

I sold this book to "cjam219" 5 or 6 months ago. It was for sale here in WAF for two weeks and I didn't receive any complaints about it. After "cjam219" put it for sale he has received PM´s about it and has now sent it back to me. He told me that there are two members who want to open thread about it and in order to save these gentlemen that trouble, I will do it myself.

[Simon O.]

It's unquestionable that he served on the U-106 and unthinkable that he didn't receive any awards.

[hucks216]

While I agree that he certainly deserved awards, with regards to the actual entries in the WP I think the signature is someones attempt to copy the signature seen on the opposite page (and elsewhere in the WP) and as the original version of the signature is backed-up by a small blue/purple KM stamp why are the award entries and supposedly the same signature backed up by a large unreadable black stamp not seen anywhere else?
That being said, it does look like there could be original entries there and someone had decided to overwrite them and add a signature & stamp for whatever reason.

[JUNGCO]

These were kept on shore stations and there is no reason for the awards to be so poorly done, especially since the book was closed out by the U-Boot Personalburo.
Jeff

[Nordfront]

Well, this guy served on U-106 during five patrols and was KIA when the boat was sunk, that is a fact. He was also only guy serving on a U-boat that long who didn't get any awards, but he got promoted four times.

I have written to Thomas Huss who sold me this Wehrpass, WASt and the U-Boot Archiv, because I really would like to know why he didn't get any awards.

Award entries look odd and are not "textbook", that is obvious. What about all those other award entries on Wehrpasses without stamps or signatures or bad hand-writing or some other oddities? There is no reason for these to be so poorly done, so they must be all fake.

How can you be sure that those award entries were done at the same time and under same circumstances when this Wehrpass was closed by the Personalbüro? Would it be more likely that those award entries were there before he was KIA?

Other theory was that someone wrote on top of original award entries and tried to copy the signature from opposite page. For what ever reason. If those award entries were there before he got KIA and book was closed, how can you be sure that it should have same stamp and that whoever signed them would make identical signature with same pen.

When I am at the meeting or at phone I make short notes and then write on top those notes so letters look bolder. Maybe someone did the same thing with those entries.

I have told "cjam219" all the time that I will make it right and that he can return it and as far as I know he already sent it back.

[Eric JB]

One can see that during Richter's war time service his Wehrpaß was not kept up to date at all.
Nearly all war time entries are done in the same hand and light blue ink by the Personalbüro U-Boote when the booklet was closed.
See page 11, 16, 18, 20, 21, 22, 32, 34.
It happened more often that there are no awards entered in UBoot KIA Wehrpäße.
I have seen more without awards than with awards.

Of course, after five war patrols with six ships sunk and one damaged, the man should be entitled to some awards, at least : Ubootskriegsabzeichen and EK.2, and perhaps yes perhaps also an EK.1.

I can't see what the stamp on page 23 shows, but it is too large for a Personalbüro U-Boote, and the Wehrmeldeamt did use a smaller version for such cases.
Most often the Ubootskriegsabzeichen was awarded after the return of the Uboat in port, the same day or a couple of days later during a ceremony, and not while the Uboat was at sea and not after 67 days (or more) later.
Same story for the EK.2.

Did some one first put those awards into the booklet with pencil to see how it did look, and after feeling comfortable with it, went over it with black ink ?

The signature is a bad copy from the original signature on page 22, while the Oberleutnant didn't have any problems with his signature on page 22 and 34 himself.

I don't believe that the award entries are original.
How they are entered, the dates, the signature, the stamp.

But that is my humble opinion, I am a human being and can be wrong too....

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[JUNGCO]

u-106

Posted for Eric-Jan.
"Heinz Huck with awards, while Josef Buchholz should be entitled to awards too."

[Eric JB]

I don't know if it did come from a good source, I do only know that it was for sale on a couple of dealer sites before ending up on the WAF e-stand.

I have seen a lot of UBoat Wehrpäße but none of them did have such poorly done award entries.

Das UBoot Archiv (without the e in German) Cuxhaven Altenbruch is not able to help as they don’t have such information.
The WASt in Berlin can tell if the guy was entitled to awards if his file is complete (during the war the WASt was bombed, files are lost and files are incomplete) but they can never say if the entries in the Wehrpaß are original.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Nordfront]

I know that WASt can't tell me if award entries are original or not. I was hoping that they could confirm what awards Richter was entitled to... That comment actually sounds like an (humble?) insult, but that is just my opinion.

Your very comprehensive post is missing one important piece of information. Can you please name those dealers that had this Wehrpass for sale? Thomas Huss and who else?

I had this Wehrpass for sale here on e-stand last June-July for two weeks until "cjam219" bought it.

[Eric JB]

?,

Maybe you need to read the entire sentence again ?

"The WASt in Berlin can tell if the guy was entitled to awards if his file is complete (during the war the WASt was bombed, files are lost and files are incomplete) but they can never say if the entries in the Wehrpaß are original."

What you hope " I was hoping that they could confirm what awards Richter was entitled to..." is included in my reply.

Maybe I should have said, The WASt in Berlin can tell if the guy was entitled to awards, but nothing about the entries in the Wehrpaß.

Didn't you read what I did post earlier ?
"Of course, after five war patrols with six ships sunk and one damaged, the man should be entitled to some awards, at least : Ubootskriegsabzeichen and EK.2, and perhaps yes perhaps also an EK.1."

That my comment sounds to you like an (humble?) insult is indeed your own opinion due to your total misunderstanding of my entire sentence.
By using the extra word (humble?) yes with a question mark it is totally clear which direction your opinion is going to.

There are no insults used in any replies / comments made by me in this U-106 Wehrpaß thread at all.

The first time I did see that U-106 Wehrpaß for sale was at Militaria Berlin, can't recall the second dealer but that was in Germany too, I did see it for sale by Thomas Huss, and when it was for sale here on the e-stand by you, and days ago by member "cjam219"

At the end it is still about the fact if the award entries are original or not.
And in my humble opinion they are not.

Best regards

Eric-Jan

[Nordfront]

One thing is for sure, I must have misunderstood the meaning of "humble"... I am also not such a great fan of endless dialogues and arguments.

I don't have any problem at being wrong and I had agreed with "cjam219" to take this Wehrpass back some time before I started this thread. I wanted to make this public and by doing so destroyed the chance to ever sell this Wehrpass. For sure Thomas Huss is not going to refund me based on your or anyone else's opinion. That is not how it works in this world. I have asked him to give his input and so far it has been pretty quiet. I have bought lot's of items from him and I paid 495€ for this particular Wehrpass.

Richter's Wehrpass was for sale at Military-Berlin first, then some other dealer in Germany, Thomas Huss, by me and finally "cjam219". I have just one more question; why you reacted now and not before? I understand that U-Boat related material is close to your heart and obviously you kept track of this particular Wehrpass. Did you inform any of those dealers that you didn't like the award entries? I had this Wehrpass for sale here on WAF e-stand for two weeks last June-July and there wasn't any negative comments or PM's about it.

[Simon O.]

We've all seen plenty of WP that were not fully filled out and up to date. I've seen plenty with pencil provisional entries as well, but if his awards were pencilled in they should have been confirmed or removed prior to sending to next of kin, if indeed it was sent.
I'm quite in agreement that someone at some point has messed with the award entries.

But that raises an interesting question every collector must decide for themselves. If the awards were legitimate what do you think of a book that has been 'played with' ? Would you class it as being defaced? Fake is too strong a word for it unless the recipient was not awarded those decorations.

[Eric JB]

I have seen booklets :

Where the original wartime owner did fill in the awards he was entitled to - but that never went into his booklet - by himself after the war with a ballpoint pen.

Wehrpäße that were received by the family and returned by them to the Wehrmeldeamt for getting their son's awards properly and official entered.

I did have the Soldbuch of a KG.26 pilot who was awarded a posthume KC for the attack on PQ.17
The KC was not entered in his Soldbuch.

Buchholz made two war patrols with U-164, three ships sunk, so he should at least be entitled for the Uboatbadge, being it for the two war patrols or as being killed in action, and possibly an EK.2.

Could I have asked someone to put in a KC entry in that KG.26 Soldbuch only because the man was entitled to it.
And using a wrong stamp and copying a signature.
He was announced as a new KC winner in the "Der Adler" magazine, and shown as a KC winner in the KG.26 book by Ulf Balke, and in the KC winners books.
No of course not as that KC entry would be a fake one.

Is : "being entitled to" a safeguard for everybody to fill in what they want in a booklet ?

[Simon O.]

Not at all. What i'm saying is that there is a difference between made up entries to something the soldier never had awarded and a book that was never kept up to date.
The point is, it's up to each collector what they wish to accept or not.

[John Foxx]

[QUOTE=Nordfront;7173399]Well, this guy served on U-106 during five patrols and was KIA when the boat was sunk, that is a fact. He was also only guy serving on a U-boat that long who didn't get any awards, but he got promoted four times.

I have written to Thomas Huss who sold me this Wehrpass, WASt and the U-Boot Archiv, because I really would like to know why he didn't get any awards.

Award entries look odd and are not "textbook", that is obvious. What about all those other award entries on Wehrpasses without stamps or signatures or bad hand-writing or some other oddities? There is no reason for these to be so poorly done, so they must be all fake.

How can you be sure that those award entries were done at the same time and under same circumstances when this Wehrpass was closed by the Personalbüro? Would it be more likely that those award entries were there before he was KIA?

Other theory was that someone wrote on top of original award entries and tried to copy the signature from opposite page. For what ever reason. If those award entries were there before he got KIA and book was closed, how can you be sure that it should have same stamp and that whoever signed them would make identical signature with same pen.



'for what ever reason' is fraud intent to decieve. Enhance the book in order to command a rediculous price I suppose? You concede on the first post the entries were considered 'odd' another word would be suspect. Regardsless of from whom you purchased it what do you think about the entries yourself, do you believe them to be of the period?