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    #16
    Well, first I think you should tone it down a bit and yes, when I bought it I believed those entries were odd or as you say suspect, which is not always the same thing. I also believed that those entries were odd, but real when I sold it on.

    I bought lots of good stuff from Thomas Huss and trusted him when he said that those entries were good. I considered him as an expert when it comes to U-Boot stuff, since that is one of his specialities and he has come up with lots of good stuff over the years. Sadly, it looks like I was very wrong about him, regardless if he knew what he was selling at that time.

    As you can see from my previous posts I still wanted to believe that everything was ok, but of course when these more knowledgeable gentlemen say that it is no good I finally understand that those entries are bad.

    Comment

      #17
      Well what is to tone down? If someone goes over possibly period entries in ink and then stamps it, I can't find another description that fits? I am not saying you did not believe them to be correct or that you sold it on with doubts. I don't know the bloke you bought it off but I seriously doubt his judgement and therfore his alledged expertise. These are little books with print and stamps and pretty easy to falsify so why the shock? Perhaps if he is so well known and thought it ok he will refund you and be happy to add it to his collection again? I think you should ask him what he thinks now and if he stands by it?

      Comment

        #18
        You are from Germany? Thomas Huss is a German dealer that has been in business for 15-20 years and he is pretty well known. Google it.

        To get a refund or even an reply from him would make me believe in Santa Claus again
        Last edited by Nordfront; 11-26-2015, 10:54 AM. Reason: typo

        Comment

          #19
          Originally posted by Nordfront View Post
          You are from Germany? Thomas Huss is a German dealer that has been in business for 15-20 years and he is pretty well known. Google it.

          To get a refund or even an reply from him would make me believe in Santa Claus again
          Believe it or not I am on your side. You have clearly done the right thing and for that, Hats off Mate! I was about to google him but since I don't know who he is now and it seems unlikely that I will ever have anything to do with him I have opted not to bother. I hope this pans out well for you but it looks like a perfectly acceptable book has been ruined by some clown. If he won't have it back will you keep it as it still honours the memory of the boy that died for his country?

          Comment

            #20
            Not to prolong this discussion endlessly but under magnification it appears, to me at least, that the dark dates were written over existing fainter dates, possibly by the owner as the dates were faded???? The timing for the awards certainly is very plausible considering his service.

            PS: I sent a copy of a photo of Richter to Thomas Huss to forward to the purchaser of the when he had it listed for sale.

            Richard

            Comment

              #21
              Originally posted by RichardT View Post
              The timing for the awards certainly is very plausible considering his service.
              No, except for the last award, they are clearly not.

              Comment

                #22
                Please explain what's so implausible.

                Richard
                Attached Files

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                  #23
                  Dates at sea, dates in port.

                  Comment

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Eric JB View Post
                    Dates at sea, dates in port.
                    Eric,

                    Not something I have looked at in any depth, are you stating that the badge was only ever awarded in port and that is the recorded date or is the date of qualification/recomendation entered or are both possible? For example if a seaman had performed a brave act at sea and was awarded a decoration for that action which date would go in the book the day he got it or the day of the action when he was recomended?

                    Comment

                      #25
                      There was a system for awarding medals and awards to uboat crew members after being back in port / between war patrols / not being at sea.

                      For example :

                      Heinz Huck U-456.

                      20.4.1942 back in port after a war patrol - Ubootskriegsabzeichen awarded 20.4.1942.
                      6.7.1942 back in port after a war patrol - EK.2 awarded 25.7.1942.

                      Rolf Beyerle U-95.

                      14.1.1941 back in port after a war patrol - Ubootkriegsabzeichen awarded 15.1.1942.
                      19.3.1941 back in port after a war patrol - EK.2 awarded 21.3.1941.

                      Willy Hahner U-66.

                      24.3.1943 back in port after a war patrol - Ubootkriegsabzeichen awarded 27.3.1943.
                      1.9.1943 back in port after a war patrol - EK.2 awarded 1.9.1943.

                      Hans Gottermeyer U-103, U-198.

                      12.12.1940 back in port after a war patrol - Ubootkriegsabzeichen awarded 14.12.1940 (Soldbuch) 13.12.1940 (WASt)
                      19.10.1940 back in port after a war patrol - EK.2 awarded 4.11.1940 (Soldbuch) 31.10.1940 (WASt)
                      12.7.1941 back in port after a war patrol - EK.1 awarded 17.7.1941.
                      24.9.1943 back in port after a war patrol - DKiG awarded 22.12.1943.

                      Wilhelm Brunke U-510.

                      13.9.1942 back in port after a war patrol - Ubootskriegsabzeichen awarded 16.9.1942.
                      13.4.1944 arrived in Singapore - EK.1 awarded 16.4.1944.
                      EK.2 awarded while serving on Torpedoboot "Leopard"

                      Best regards

                      Eric-Jan

                      Comment

                        #26
                        Eric,

                        I see the patern, is this unique to U Boat or a general rule within the KM also have you any that sit outside that pattern, like I said perhaps for bravery on a specific action or would those be swept up after the patrol too?

                        Comment

                          #27
                          Eric-Jan, I totally agree that there was a system as you've illustrated. All I'm saying that it is not inconceivable that on occasion awards were made at the discretion of various commanders. Most of these systems were guidelines as opposed to carved in stone. I would not necessarily be so willing to disregard something because it does not fit into an authorized "system" or "guideline".

                          Cheers
                          Richard

                          Comment

                            #28
                            These are awards we are taking about. Depending on the type of award, it had to go up the chain of command before it could be awarded. An Iron Cross could not be awarded by a company commander and not even a regiment commander. Even a lowly assault badge could not be awarded by a company commander, it had to be the regimental commander. That isn't to say a local commander can't award something in the field, but it was not to be entered into the Wehrpass or Soldbuch unless it was approved by a higher command. As to a U-boat badge, you don't see awards signed by U-boat commanders. The MP's were charged with enforcing award entries and they tended to take a dim view on "non-official" award entries.
                            Jeff

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                              #29
                              Thank you Jeff, but I think that we are talking against a wall.

                              Richard, your post # 22 makes no sense at all and is very implausible, read again all the replies, including the one recently posted by Jeff.

                              John, my interest is about Uboats.

                              Did one of you ever had contact with Uboatcrewmembers ? from the lower ranks up to KC winning Commanders ? did you talk with them ? did you ask them questions ? were you invited to visit them at their own home ?
                              Did one of you ever visit the UBoot Archiv in Cuxhaven ?
                              Did you talk with the owner (R.I.P) - a Uboat veteran himself, or any of the Uboat veterans who were visiting the archive themselves.

                              The Uboat commander could recommend a crewmember for an award to the higher command.

                              The only awards that could not fit the system were the DKiG and the RK, they could be awarded through radio message and that would also be the date in the Soldbuch or Wehrpaß, but the award officially handed out back at base. (not talking about posthumous DKiG and RK now)

                              Alfred Eick of U-510 did hear through radio message that he was awarded the DKiG and the RK while on a war patrol at sea.

                              Karl Donsbach did receive his DKiG at sea during a war patrol on U-129, given to him by his commander Kapitänleutnant Hans-Ludwig Witt, but it was pre-arranged by higher command.

                              I will ask Jeff to show the images.
                              The official award document (day filled out by hand) and the photo of Donsbach with his freshly awarded DKiG.

                              Best regards

                              Eric-Jan

                              Comment

                                #30
                                images

                                Posting for Eric-Jan.
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