A Truly Honest Seller

[Fritz]

Hi Alex,

yes that is probably the case...I am not collecting them either. But who likes them should collect them I have no problem with that.....as long as ....well you know!

Cheers

Fritz

[Matt L]

well I don't have a problem if people collect ground dug IDs. But in this particular case it looks to me as if the IDs are coming from graves

So Fritz, just what exactly makes you think that they come from graves? Do you have some actual evidence that none of the rest of us have? Is it just the fact that Vlad is Russian? I would hope this is not the case but until you actually have any definite reason to back up your 'feeling', that's sure what it sounds like.

All his description says is that searching for fallen soldiers is the reason for their work- that in NO WAY suggests that's all they find. THE FIND WHAT IS THERE JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE. They're no different than any metal-detectorists except that if they DO find remains they take the next step- AGAIN AS I SAID, they bury Soviet soldiers or unknown soldiers properly, and report any identifiable German remains to the German consulate. I don't need evidence consisting of copies of reports- that's like saying because they're Russian, you can't trust them. Hardly the unbiased position you claim to hold. And, once again, the reports do not require the actual disc; AGAIN if you read postings on the Militaria Fundforum, it is often recommended that finders NOT send the discs in because they are often never returned. A friend of mine in the Ukraine did this the 4 times he happened to find remains and has never heard from the German government again- so Jean-Loup's friends getting the discs they found back in a couple of month definitely seems not to always be the case.

My point about just how many Erkennungsmarken are out there is supported perfectly by what Alex wrote- although I don't understand why there has to be such a stark division between Eastern and Western Europe. Far more Germans soldiers were taken prisoner bythe Soviets than the Western Allies, so the POW camps in the East were at least as big as those in the West, so should contain just as many items, yes? In fact, that does seem to be the case- except that in at least a few cases I know of where badges and medals were taken and thrown away too. It's my understanding that much of what was confiscated in Western POW camps was taken as souvenirs by the Allied soldiers. My friends in the Czech Republic have found dozens of badges and medals in areas where large numbers of German soldiers were captured at the end of the war- so the Soviets, at least sometimes, simply threw everything away. One never hears of hoards of discarded German medals and badges at the sites of former POW camps in the West.

"People believe what they want to believe"- well Fritz, you're certainly proving that by obviously wanting greatly to believe that my friend is a 'black' digger with no evidence at all. I actually ASKED QUESTIONS before deciding if I thought he was a good fellow or not. I never asked him if he reports German soldiers, I asked him what he does in such a case. It was HIM who told me the details which fit with what is to be honestly done. Sure, it's always possible that he could be lying to me for well over a year now, but then so could even people you know personally. I happen to think that there is reason to believe him and there is NO reason not to. I judge people on my experiences with them, not by where they're from or things other than personal contact.

You also seem to have seriously misread much of what I wrote so I'll say things again: I never said they money they raise by selling some items was to pay for a 'good grave' for German soldiers- it is "to pay for the burials of soldiers who cannot be identified" OBVIOUSLY the German government takes care of this for German soldiers they identify. The majority of these are unknown men are probably Russian soldiers. Since Vlad and his group are Russian, their primary motivation at the beginning OF COURSE was to take care of Russian soldiers. But, obviously, one cannot set his search to find ONLY Russians- one finds what is out there. And they simply sell items they find that have value to support the work.

And I didn't say a thing about holding Germans or anyone else in higher regard than anyone else- saying that I would not buy German IDs that came from graves was because that was the discussion- about GERMAN IDs. It does not IN ANY WAY say that I condone this for any other nationality. I thought that was obvious.

Matt

[hochiminhtrail]

Hy Matt,

for the POW camps there is big difference in the ones that are located inside Germany, and the ones on the Russian front.

the for example all nother part of Schlewsig holstein was a POW camp, there was no really fences as you would think a pow camp should be, they camped in open fields, forest and villages we are talking about over 500 000 troops coming down from Norway and Denamrk, all soldiers did surrender with arms to the brits, the german commanders still had there weapons and fully control of there troops, this is really just after the surrender of the 8 mai. Then they had to move to proper camps our were sent back home. Before the process of being demobilized our transefered to other POW camps they threw their stuff away.


I cant really say what happend to German soldiers captured in 1943 by the Russian for example, but from what i have heard is the the NKVD our SMERSCH did real interogation of POW, took sodbooks , fieldpost letters and so on maybe ID Tags as well.
I guess you have a lot of stuff in depots in Russia.
because German POW havent brought anything back from Russia camps.

But i doubt that theGerman POW had the itention to throw away an ID tag in the middle of a war an then especially on the Russian front, remember this is the only item that can hepl indentificating you.
But at the end in Mai 45 on the Western front, that was something different, German troop were saved just by surrending to Brits or Gi s. There was nothing to worry anymore the war was over.

So there is a big difference between cauth in 1943 in Russia, and a surrender of all troops at the end of the war.

i ll hope i was of any help.

Alex

[Fritz]

Matt,

now you are going again to accuse me that I have anything against your friend because of he is a russian. This is pulled out of the sky. I want to make clear again that this isn't the case. But you are trying to throw that shadow on me over and over again.....but go on if you like that.

FOR ME it is clear were these IDs come from. I look at the story he offers, which is very entertaining, with boys and girls and him being an old man speaking a very good english and using a computer and the internet. Further he had two SS IDs which you believed to be fake ....Does he have these from the boys and girls of whom he knows that they are only recovering fallen soldiers? Or was he trying to make some more money? Who knows? Do you?

Maybe it is odd that I don't hear of many old people (by the way he says all that himself on his ebay auctions) like him.

You said yourself, for several times, that he is searching for human remains....I consider the places where those rest as a grave. Your former statement was that the IDs are everywhere there but seldomly in graves...

Further you say that he is selling the IDs to pay for burials for the unkown soldiers. ARE THEY UNKNOWN BECAUSE OF HE IS SELLING THEIR IDs?....This is the question.

For information: The german government and the Kriegsgräberfürsorge do pay for the burials of the unknown soldiers too.

I NEVER said that they exclusivly pay for the german soldiers.

If you ask me: I think that it is right that they pay for the unknown soldiers as well.


Again; I would be very glad to be wrong....maybe you should take your IDs and request the datas in Germany...or perhaps the red cross in your country could help. If they say that the one that blongs to the ID is buried in city X in russia and that the datas were transfered to the german institut before this thread started. Then we know that your friend truly is a good guy. But, I cannot promisse that they want your IDs to be sent to them and that you'll ever get them back.... You'll need to check that...This would definatly help to solve the problem and it would prove that he is really a honours man.


Cheers

Fritz

[Fritz]

Alex,

good explanation!

Fritz

[Gaspare]

If you guys think that the Russian or Ukrainian gov. cares that kids are digging around battlefields you have no idea whats happenning there! They don't care about anything unless its something that makes them money!

As far as the German military grave registration service,,,in the mid or late 1990s I was personally at 2 digs in Ukraine. The soldier info and locations were reported to the agency. This summer when I was there neither site has ever been checked by the German gov.!!!! The site has been protected by some locals to keep other diggers from reopening the site until or IF the German gov. ever comes to reclaim their men....There are no groups going into proper graveyards [ crosses with designated body locations] and digging as most of those are shared with the Russian/Ukrainian grave yards , the locals wouldn't stand for it!

Most tags come from Battlefields, waste dumps or vets...For me there are no 'black diggers' they are just con men selling fake tags..........
If it bothers you to buy from diggers then I hope your items are all mint and from the factory , depo, or from the actuall vet..Does it make you feel better if your item came from a allied vet that slit the throat of a SS man to get his medals and cufftitle!!. , G.

[Fritz]

Does it make you feel better if your item came from a allied vet that slit the throat of a SS man to get his medals and cufftitle!!


Can't really say anything about that as it is one of the most bizare things I have ever seen here....Sorry but it is.

As for the other things: I have nothing to add.

Cheers

Fritz

[Gaspare]

Sorry it is so shocking to you..Not all items were from warehouses, confiscation piles or from German vets..When an item comes from a allied vet where does it come from if not the above?.Most were plucked off dead bodies, torn from POWs or from breaking into some poor Germans house and having it torn apart for some souvenir. This is reality..This is what we collect..

I do respect everyones opinions and it is good all sides get expressed. That is what the forum is about. As always buy and collect what you like and feel happy with or,,to each his own , G.

[Fritz]

Not shocking....rather bizare....very bizare....


I get your point and you are right.......you never know......Though I don't like if medals were taken from graves the big problem to me is when the ID gets taken away....this is what I said....nothing else. And this only because of the soldiers identity could get lost forever. If people collect things that came from graves is a moralic question. I am sure that most people don't want an item that they know of it came from a grave....which is understandable. But again; when do you know? I think only when you yourself dug it out. In any other case you need to believe....The story of how things were found can make you believe in one way or another....

Cheers

Fritz

[Airborne Nut]

But again; when do you know? I think only when you yourself dug it out. In any other case you need to believe....The story of how things were found can make you believe in one way or another....

Cheers

Fritz

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, let's say you do go dig it yourself, you find absolutely no evidence of human remains and you find several dog tags we'll say all at once. So you show your find on the forum, or maybe you don't have any interrest in these dog tags so you try to sell them on eBay to fund your future excursions. Then some guy comes along and starts calling you a Grave Robber and a Grave Thief, or whatever. Regardless many others jump on the band wagon with absolutely no proof but you KNOW you dug it legitimately, what then?

There was NO PROOF that you didn't rob it from the grave, but then again there is only your word that you dug it legitimately. So what now? Your name has been dragged through the mud and your reputation may have been soiled, all because some who had no REAL PROOF decided to start throwing around accusations like they were party poppers.

Again just playing devil's advocate.

-Shane

[Fritz]

Well I think that if you offer ground dug issued IDs you need to provide more than just a good story to assure that they are legal found and sold. These special items require for good proof and special care by the seller.....IDs aren't like helmets, badges, canisters, belt buckles or things like that. They are very special and I have explained for several times what makes them so special..........It is not their value in money but the ability to "find" a person.

As for the "believe"....Also the buyer is in a special situation if he decides to buy dug IDs. This is why one should look closser at those who offer such IDs....In the case of the Stalingrad IDs I don't like the whole storry and he is not able to make me believe that the IDs are legal offered nor found.....Again, I can be wrong but any seller of these very special items must be aware that he will be confrontated with such questions and sceptism. And he must be able to answer them. If Matt is willing to have his IDs checked by the red cross we will know more.....So long I am not satisfied by a "nice storry" only.

I really hope I can say that I am wrong....

Cheers

Fritz

[Matt L]

Hi Fritz,

I didn't say you were against Vlad because he is Russian, I asked, since I see no other reason for your bad opinion, if you were simply assuming that all diggers in Russia are bad until proven otherwise. I'm not trying to do anything to you- I was simply trying to understand because so far nothing else makes sense.

FOR ME it is clear were these IDs come from

This is not a defensible position- you immediately disbelieve his explanation, and conjur up issues like he's an old man that speaks fluent English but uses a computer. Well just for your information, he is a Russian-English translator by profession. And he's not a really old man- go to ePier and look at his picture. As I said, he travels back and forth regularly from Moscow to Volgograd for work, so he couldn't be that old. He only says that he considers himself too old to go out in the field with his group any more- why is that so bizarre?

You said yourself, for several times, that he is searching for human remains....I consider the places where those rest as a grave. Your former statement was that the IDs are everywhere there but seldomly in graves...

No Fritz- I said that the point of his group is to find fallen soldiers, but as should be easily understood, when one goes out to look, one can only find what is there! You can't set a metal-detector to 'human remains'. What I said, again, is that it doesn't matter what someone goes out to find, they only find what they find! My point was that there could be tens of thousands of discs that are not associated with remains and that coming across those during a search is not weird at all. If there were no reason to believe there were any discs that were not in graves, it would be reasonable to expect any found were from graves. But since there are other possibilites in this case, that assumption is invalid. The examples of other diggers I know should have shown this as well.

ARE THEY UNKNOWN BECAUSE OF HE IS SELLING THEIR IDs?....This is the question.

If you have no proper reason for doubting his word, then no, they are not unknown because he is selling their IDs. This would be a fair question when one first encounters a seller, absolutely. I always ask 'do you ever find remains?' and 'what do you do then?', and as I've already said, I've moved past this issue with Vlad because I got the one satisfactory answer- that if German remains are found and he notifies the German government.

For information: The german government and the Kriegsgräberfürsorge do pay for the burials of the unknown soldiers too.

Of course they do- the 'unknown' to which I was referring is truly unknown- those that cannot be identified as German or Russian. If they know remains are German, whether there is an Erkennungsmarke or not, the German consulate is notified. Again, as I've already written, their main goal is to properly bury fallen Russian soldiers. If they cannot identify remains as either Russian or German, they still do it.

I NEVER said that they exclusivly pay for the german soldiers. If you ask me: I think that it is right that they pay for the unknown soldiers as well.

Which 'they' are you referring to? The German government only pays for the recovery and burial German soldiers, yes? Vlad's group facilitates that when they know a soldier was German- all the others, whether definitely Russian or not, they take care of as their group's goal states. Neither 'they' has any obligation to pay for the other's responsibility if the nationality is clear. I wouldn't expect the Kriegsgräberfürsorge to pay for the burial of Russian soldiers any more than I'd expect Vlad's group to pay for the burial of German soldiers. In fact, I would think that if anyone other than the Kriegsgräberfürsorge tried to re-bury German soldiers, THAT would be somethin to rightly be unhappy about.

Again; I would be very glad to be wrong....maybe you should take your IDs and request the datas in Germany...or perhaps the red cross in your country could help. If they say that the one that blongs to the ID is buried in city X in russia and that the datas were transfered to the german institut before this thread started. Then we know that your friend truly is a good guy. But, I cannot promisse that they want your IDs to be sent to them and that you'll ever get them back.... You'll need to check that...This would definatly help to solve the problem and it would prove that he is really a honours man.

This can't really be an 'again', because you've only ever tried to say that you're not wrong. And this 'suggestion' for obtaining proof doesn't really work because I cannot say which of the discs Vlad offers for sale were found with remains and which were not. If one was not, then you can't check if it's been reported, now can you? And if you don't trust him when he tells you which were and which were not, how will checking help prove that he is honest? It doesn't make sense.

Vlad is not making tons of money with his auctions, so there is little reason for him to conjur up this big story and stick to it they way he does- and my whole reason for writing this thread in the first place was to tell others how honest he is! If he were dishonest, he would have disagreed with me about the SS discs being fake and just continued on with the auctions. But his immediate reaction was to stop the auctions and thank me for helping him avoid damaging his reputation. If it were easy to prove that he is lying about notifying the Kriegsgräberfürsorge when he finds German soldiers, his 'reputation' wouldn't be worth a thing and he would have no reason to want to keep it good! So no, I didn't have to check with the Kriegsgräberfürsorge that he was telling the truth before starting this thread- but if you doubt it, then you're welcome to check. But because you won't know which discs were found with remains and which were not, checking won't help at all. This thread was not an invitation for disparagers to throw in their unsupported opinions, or to invite a debate on the ethics of dug items- it was to report that a seller withdrew items that he learned were fakes rather than selling them anyway- period.

This discussion just made me think of something- a couple of years ago, I saw a documentary on TV about the 'Remnants of War', and one of the parts was a story about a man in Volgograd who, all by himself, goes out to the old battlefields and searches for fallen soldiers. He said that for most of his life he wandered about in these places, and that when he was young, he would just collect the Erkennungsmarken he found and dump them. Then when he was older he realized that these were not just pieces of metal, but people's identities- that they were the only way to know WHO the skeletons were and that their families might not even know what happened to them. He then decided, all on his own, that he would search for these forgotten soldiers and do what he could to honor them. He re-buried Soviet soldiers in a military cemetery (most had no ID so could not be identified), and he got in contact with the German government and some German veteran's groups to take care of any German soldiers he found. For the documentary, they had 2 German veterans who had made it out of Stalingrad before the pocket was closed (both had been wounded and flown out), go back to the city and meet this man. Only fairly recently, the Russian government allowed Germany to erect a small cemetery and memorial to the German soldiers lost during the battle, and the filmmakers took the German vets there- they looked for the names of friends they had lost, but couldn't find any as there are only something like 20 000 names on the walls of the memorial. When they visited this Russian man, they all chatted a bit through an interpreter. The German veterans told him how much they appreciated his work, and he saw how much it meant to them- and that spured him on to keep doing it. The sad part was the end where the man talked about how vast the battlefields were and how the stories from the old people in the village he is from (on the outskirts of the city) told of just how many thousands of men had once lain on those fields- and the film ended with him saying that there would probably still be work for his Grandson to do there. A very poignant story and a good illustration of what Vladimir's group does.

Now Fritz- I have no desire to make an enemy of you because of this disagreement- I really don't. It seems that nothing I write will change your opinion and that's fine- but know that I do have a problem when someone says bad things about a friend of mine without any proof. It simply isn't right. If there were proof, that would be a different story- but assumptions and dubiously interpreted circumstantial 'evidence' is hardly proof.

That having been said, also know that I agree with you completely that it is terrible that some people do take identification tags from field graves and don't check with the authorities to be sure that the soldier isn't listed as missing-in-action. There are so many MIAs, of all nationalities, and it is very sad that there are families who don't know what happened to their loved-one... and it is even sadder when this mystery could have been solved but wasn't, and because of dishonorable people, never can be. This is why I, and I hope most others, always ask a seller questions when they are offered or see a ground-dug identity tag for sale. There doesn't seem to be a really large number of us who do collect them, and from various discussions here and elsewhere, it does seem that the majority do care about this issue. One can hardly ever be 100% certain, but I believe we always do the best we can.

Cheers,

Matt

[Matt L]

Just to play Devil's Advocate here, let's say you do go dig it yourself, you find absolutely no evidence of human remains and you find several dog tags we'll say all at once. So you show your find on the forum, or maybe you don't have any interrest in these dog tags so you try to sell them on eBay to fund your future excursions. Then some guy comes along and starts calling you a Grave Robber and a Grave Thief, or whatever. Regardless many others jump on the band wagon with absolutely no proof but you KNOW you dug it legitimately, what then?

There was NO PROOF that you didn't rob it from the grave, but then again there is only your word that you dug it legitimately. So what now? Your name has been dragged through the mud and your reputation may have been soiled, all because some who had no REAL PROOF decided to start throwing around accusations like they were party poppers.

Again just playing devil's advocate.

-Shane

Ironically Shane, this happened to a friend of mine earlier this year, here on this Forum. He posted a picture and asked a question and was immediately bombarded with accusations of grave-robbing. It was only a couple of people, but they persisted despite everything and it was not nice at all. The worst thing is that this fellow had just started visiting the Forum and now doesn't any more because of how he was treated. Luckily I am able to answer his questions and we correspond privately.

Matt

[Matt L]

As far as the German military grave registration service,,,in the mid or late 1990s I was personally at 2 digs in Ukraine. The soldier info and locations were reported to the agency. This summer when I was there neither site has ever been checked by the German gov.!!!! The site has been protected by some locals to keep other diggers from reopening the site until or IF the German gov. ever comes to reclaim their men....There are no groups going into proper graveyards [ crosses with designated body locations] and digging as most of those are shared with the Russian/Ukrainian grave yards , the locals wouldn't stand for it!

Ironically, this was also something Vlad mentioned to me a little while back- that the German consulate did not seem to have any real interest in his reports. I'm not criticizing them or anything, I only mention it because if he were lying about contacting them, how could he know that there are often delays in recovery. I knew this because another friend of mine in the Ukraine experienced the same thing. He's the one I mentioned who sent the Erkennungsmarken he found with remains to Germany and has never gotten them back. He actually ended up collecting the bones (he's found many many Erkennungsmarken but only three skeletons in several years of prospecting with his metal-detector) and has them stored in boxes at his home because he was concerned that over time he might no longer be able to find the sites again. As far as I know, he's still waiting for someone to come and claim them.

Matt

[Fritz]

Matt,

I really suggest that you try to have your IDs checked. I see that you are convinced that most of them don't come from graves. But you say yourself that it might be that some come from graves. So if they are all MIAs then this is no good sign...

For all the other things you have mentioned in your last post; I see we have reached a point were we are going to repeat our words. If there are any questions left from your side I am sure the answer will be in one of my former posts.

If your friend turns out to be truly good by checking the IDs as in an earlier post described I will be the first who says that I was wrong and will appologize...So far I will keep up large sceptism against ANYBODY who sells dug IDs.

Cheers

Fritz