A Truly Honest Seller

[hochiminhtrail]

hy guys,


well i think we can all cool off a little bit, there is allways 2 sides to a story,

from what i know they are organisation in Russia that go digging for KIA they are looking for Germans and Russian, they reports the graves to local autorities.

I just watched 2 weeks ago on German television a footage of a German Moutain troop veteran soldier going back to the Kuban front, to see where he fought, he was traveling with a TV crew and some young russian stutends that were digging for KIA from both sides.
at one point in the story they found some German Remains in a village where an old women knew of 2 german troopers being killed in here back garden, she tried to convince local authorities to move them to a proper cemetery, but there is a law that mention she could not move the bodies to a proper cemetery the goverment hasent done anything for the 2 soldiers.

finaly the students group moved them and burried them correctly, and this was totaly illegal by Russian law.

So we can say that some people in Russia do care about the history of both sides.

we can not put everybody in the same categorie.

But we have to be really carefull aswell because there is big money for locals to make out of it. And we all know how the situation is in Russia, especially for poor families in the country side.

Alex

[marcos cidade]

Well I think that if you offer ground dug issued IDs you need to provide more than just a good story to assure that they are legal found and sold. These special items require for good proof and special care by the seller.....IDs aren't like helmets, badges, canisters, belt buckles or things like that. They are very special and I have explained for several times what makes them so special..........It is not their value in money but the ability to "find" a person.

Cheers

Fritz

I really think it's surrealistic to suppose that this particular russian seller is an honest guy or not.

I'm not here to judge, but, if I was a seller selling a german dog tag I also would enclose some kind of comprobation that I sent the informations contained on the disc to the German gov't or to the Roten Kreuz.
In my opinion an email or a letter with its proper reply from the organization concerned (Gov't or Red Cross) is the most appropriate way, and I also think that the buyers should also ask this (or any other form of comprobation) to the seller. I think it's not a one-side moral question, it comes from both parts, because I often read from collectors (not in this case, please !!) that they only complain when they buy a fake relic item - not a grave dug one.

[Sgnt Fury]

HI I would just like to add something about Vlad. I haven't bought any ID discs from him did buy a heer license plate that was ground dug from Stalingrad and am really happy with it. He was very friendly and helpful. Its also an item I've kinda been after for a while and is definately a real one. heres a pic of it.

[Ludwig]

-

I find it VERY strange that a CERTAIN moderator does not defend Vlad here...

[Matt L]

So far I will keep up large sceptism against ANYBODY who sells dug IDs.

Geez, if you'd said this at the beginning rather than immediately going on the offensive, it would have saved us both a lot of bickering There is nothing at all wrong with being skeptical, it was the angry and insulting way you expressed it that I had a problem with.

As for the check you suggest, to be perfectly honest, I don't expect to get any information from the WASt if I were to check the few discs I've bought from Vladimir. A few years ago, when I first became interested in Erkennungsmarken, it occurred to me that many that were for sale could have come from men who were still listed as missing. My intention was to discover just what you are suggesting: whether or not the discs had come from unreported graves, so I made a list of discs from ebaY and other auctions, and sent it to them. I explained the situation in my email- but I only ever received a short letter basically saying thankyou for the information, some literature about their progress and intentions for the next year, and several solicitations for donations. In my consideration of why they didn't seem to believe my information would help anything, it occurred to me that unless a disc was found with remains, knowing that it had been found meant nothing. There are a myriad of reasons one might find just the disc of a man who is still listed as missing. Only finding the remains in association with the disc would clear up a case. The same thing goes for halves of discs- just because the top half is being sold by someone doesn't mean it was taken from a grave. As I already said, it seems to have been a formal practice in some places to break confiscated discs, and even in the absence of such a practice, there are still lots of reasons discs might have been broken. The vast majority of discs my friend in the Czech Republic finds are halves- and as I mentioned, he's never found human remains.

Just to address the last couple of issues, I never said that I was convinced that most of the discs I have bought from Vlad came from graves- only that I believe him when he says that he reports the ones that are. Also once again, in order to check his claim, I would have to ask him which ones, if any, were found with remains, before I could do any investigation. If he is truly dishonest, he'll lie about these details, so checking won't tell me a thing. If someone is trying to convince people he does report graves, he needs only do it a few times and then only tell about those ones- he can simply say that everything else was not in a grave. Furthermore, there is little that I could do if I were to find out that Vlad is dishonest- there are a bunch of people out there who consistently sell fake discs, and none of us has been successful in seriously affecting their sales. Of course it would be positive at least in that those of us who know, wouldn't do business with such a person.

Truly, there is no way to know that someone is not reporting graves unless he, or someone who sees him do it, tells you. A friend once told me that someone he knew was selling some items that were found with a couple of fallen SS men- I asked if they had reported the graves, and when he said no, this guy never did that, I told my friend I was definitely not interested. He actually agreed with me because he thought such actions were very dishonorable.

Fritz, I do not wish to prove you wrong in order to obtain an apology- none of what I have written was trying to get that. It was only to show that the strength of your reaction was excessive and unfair. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with maintaining a negative skepticism about this issue because there really is no definitve proof that Vlad IS reporting every grave he finds, just as there is no definitve proof that he is not. I simply have no reason to doubt him, and you feel you have no reason to trust him. Both are completely fair positions- IF maintained with a moderate air.

Thus far, my best reasoning says to buy only from seemingly trustworthy sources, as determined by personal communications, if there is the possibility of dishonorable digging practices. I'm not silly enough to believe I have all the answers, so if someone can actually propose some way that one could positively know something could ONLY have come from a grave, please say so- my logic as written above is just what makes sense to me.

Matt

[Fritz]

Matt,

it could have been any other seller. If he appears like a "bad digger" then I am saying this.....I want that everyone that buys and collects dug IDs is very, very sceptic. I don't want to attack your hobby....if you like to collect dug IDs then this is ok. Meanwhile I believe that you are a "careful" collector...still I don't like this seller here. Maybe I am wrong, I hope I am wrong. But everyone should ask for real proof that these things are legal sold. And my personal opinion is that such sellers need to provide the proof in advance...not just if you ask for it....


Cheers

Fritz

[Matt L]

Hi Fritz,

Well, I do definitely try to be as careful as I can to only deal with people who seem to be honest. Indeed, at least in a case like Vlad's because he has an organized group, it does seem like a good idea to provide proof of his claims in advance; not just for those who ask for it, but as Marcos suggested, automatically given to back up the statements made in the auction. I don't fault him for not doing this yet, because I'm sure that the issue had never before been brought up to him before now. I don't doubt that he'd be happy to prove his honesty should anyone care to request confirmation of his claims.

Unfortunately, I still don't see any way around my argument that a seller could simply lie and say that a particular disc was not found with remains and therefore there was no report. Such a case is impossible to check. So really we're still in the situation I described before- having to judge a person's honesty by personal communication. I believe I have been as careful as possible- the majority of discs in my collection either came from the US or Western Europe (the majority from Germany), and the ones from Eastern Europe have come from only 3 sellers, all of whom I feel are trustworthy.

Just on a closing note, when I started this thread, I told Vladimir about it because I wanted to show him that we as collectors would be quite pleased with his honesty with respect to not selling SS discs that appeared to be fake. Unfortunately, he only checked it out after the tangent about grave-robbing started, and he was understandably bothered by that. He wrote me that he was hurt that anyone would think he does such bad things. This was one more reason I feel he is being honest with me because, in my experience, sellers who are dishonest become angry not hurt if anyone questions them; whether they be selling fakes or items from graves because they know such accusations can impact on their sales. In fact, one seller became so angry that I thought his discs were fakes, he actually claimed that they had to be authentic because they had come from graves! I would only expect an honest seller to become annoyed if it appeared that more and more people started believing that he was dishonest.

Matt

[FW 200]

His age?

In case anyone is interested, I asked this guy if he ever saw Stalin, and he replied sort of abruptly: " of course not, I am only 43 years old ". Nice of him to work with underpriviledged children, though.

[benny-vermisst]

Are some of you blind

How blind are some here?

Everything has 2 sides, yes?


For all blind men something current:
We have had some ID-tags from these auctions of vlad2308 in a summary proceeding of the Wast examined.

Here the original e-Mail from the Wast (Wehrmachtauskunftstelle, responsible for all questions about missed or fallen german soldiers), in german language, but easy to understand:

Von: …….@wast.Verwalt-Berlin.de
Gesendet: 17.03.06 08:49:28
An: ingo@vermisst-gefallen.net
Betreff: Erkennungsmarken

Sehr geehrter Herr Wenzeck,

vielen Dank f******252;r Ihre Anfrage vom 15. M******228;rz 2006.

Zu den genannten EM gebe ich Ihnen folgendes Ermittlungsergebnis:

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-SIGN...QQcmdZViewItem

5. Nachr. Ers. Abt. 1 -5068- = Tr******228;ger gilt ab Januar 1943 in Stalingrad als vermisst.

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-INFA...QQcmdZViewItem

11. IR. 238 -42- = Tr******228;ger gilt als vermisst in Stalingrad.

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-ARTI...QQcmdZViewItem

9. A. R. 4 -103- = Tr******228;ger gilt als vermisst in Stalingrad.

Da meine Dienststelle als Rechtsnachfolgebeh******246;rde der Wehrmachtsauskunftsstelle (WASt) zust******228;ndig ist, bitte ich um die ******220;bersendung der EM. ---> DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? THE WAST WANT THESE ID-TAGS!!!!!

Mit freundlichen Gr******252;******223;en


Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)

Tel.: 030-419-04-XXX


So much some of you think isn't correct either.

e.g. : Only German authorities may determine people for Grave works of German soldiers in russia.
This is law in accordance with the "Kriegsgr******228;berabkommen" between Russia and Germany of 1992.
And described there in article 5 paragraph 1 !!!
http://www.volksbund.de/kgs/land.asp?kga=1&land=99075

Still more laws?
Here e.g.
" the article 17 of the I. Geneva agreement of 8-12-1949,
" the article 120 of the III. Geneva agreement of 8-12-1949
" the article 34 of the I. Geneva additional protocol of 6-8-1977

With sales and also with the purchase of ID-tags of missed or fallen German soldiers violate or make yourself partly responsible at the violation of an international law !!!

Can you sleep still well?
It is worth this?
To destroy the identity of a man?
To have his relatives in uncertainty for ever?
Only to complete around a collection?


We also have written to this oh so good, truly honest seller already last week.
Here one part of our letter:
" Which authority gives these youngsters the permission for excavations?
" Which authorities or organizations are also involved?
" Do you have a copy of this permission?
" What are they doing with the human remains of german soldiers?
" Whom do you / they inform at finds of german human remains?
Answer?
No !!!!
How also, if he is a grave robber!!!!! Certainly he doesn't carefully handle the remains of the founded soldiers!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His hypocritical waffle about these oh so poor yougsters who engage themselves each summer, on a voluntary basis is only empty gossip for you !!!!
All nonsense! ! Know, what a worker earns in Russia? Approximately 1200-1500 dollars, per annum !!!! Vlad has earned approx. 50000 dollars only at Ebay, and also he is registered at other auctioneers!

Why the Wast nothing knows of then if he is such a good person?
Why the Volksbund these cases are unknown (by the way: Volksbund have an office in Volgograd)?
Why the human remains haven't been given there?
Why he doesn't answer us?
He could do so much but he doesn't do it!
Because he doesn't care at all !!!
And so these soldiers die a second time and disappear in any display cases for ever...


You get now slow awake ???

All other non-blind peoples, who had wrote here : Thanks for your help, thanks for your understand!!

[benny-vermisst]

Hello,

Excuse me,

have completely forgotten to introduce me.
But this is the rage, the faint.
We have tried on all ways to make ebay stop thes auctions.
It has brought nothing, this time
We won't give up, No, now "funny" is end ( schlu******223; mit lustig!!!)

We, VKSVG e.V. ( Verein zur kl******228;rung von Schicksalen Vermisster und Gefallener e.V.) are an official organization with members and Sponsors from many countries of Europe (and also 1 from the USA!!!),
active in the search for missed and fallen soldiers of the 2nd World War.
We get search enquiries daily and we already have helped many people.
Also active. We have identified graves here in Russia, Austria, Belgium, Poland and natural in Germany, and helped to bring there buried to a worthy resting-place.
I myself do this already since 1995.
We also could help already in many cases with the help of war diaries or division chronicles too.

Please visit our website: http://www.vermisst-gefallen.net


To soon !!

.

[Matt L]

Well Benny- of the three Erkennungsmarken you mentioned above, how many do you know for a fact were found with human remains? If they were not found a body, they are of no help at all to solve missing-in-action cases.

I'm also curious: how do you know that Vlad has earned $50000.00 selling Erkennungsmarken? How do you know that he isn't doing what he says he does- just because he didn't answer your letter? Well if it was written anything like the insulting posting you just made, I don't blame him. I wouldn't respond either. You need to seriously think about what you write if you expect anyone to take you seriously. If you have any proof that Vlad doing all the bad things you accuse him of, by all means provide it.

It's my understanding that Erkennungsmarken are found virtually every day around Europe without any human remains. MILLIONS of men threw them away at the end of the war, they were taken from prisoners in POW camps, they appear at the sites of Feldlazaretten where they seem to have been collected from the wounded- all kinds of places. In fact, it seems quite rare in most places to find a body. As I've said, I have a good friend in the Czech Republic who has been finding them for years now and has NEVER found a body- neither have any of his friends. And between them they've found THOUSANDS of Erkennungsmarken. Sometimes they appear in large piles on the sides of roads- possibly confiscated from men taken prisoner. One find I was told of was over 300 of them in a single pit.

Now I agree that it's very wrong to take one from a body without reporting the find to the WASt, but unless one has proof that someone is doing this, one has NO business accusing him of such a crime. If you're correct and that it is contrary to a formal international agreement for Vlad and his group to do the work they do, then that's certainly a problem.

My German isn't that great, but do I understand the agreement you mention to mean that if anyone finds the grave of a German soldier, they must leave it alone and that only German agencies are allowed to excavate the site? If this is the case, have you notifed Vlad of this? Is it possible he has no idea this what is to be done?

Matt

[Matt L]

Truly Benny, what you should be doing instead of coming onto our forum and being accusing and insulting, is to try to gain allies among collectors. All you achieve by writing the way you did is to make people want to ignore you. Present proof that a person is someone we should not buy from. All your quotations of the Geneva Convention above are really irrelevant unless you can prove someone is taking discs from graves. They're quite meaningless when it comes to discs found in the absence of remains because those provide no information whatsoever and do no damage whatoever.

If you can prove that Vlad is taking discs from graves and not properly notifying the authorities, or even that he has lied about having done so in the past, then absolutely no one should buy anything from him and we should do all we can to get people to stop doing so.

I've only ever bought two items from Vlad, and I was sure to ask if they had been found with remains or not and he assured me they had not been (or I wouldn't have bought them). I have, however, exchanged many emails with him on the subject of markings and on his group. He strikes me as a good guy and never gave me any reson to doubt him. You, benny, on the other hand have just suddenly appeared and insulted me and others, which is not a very good way to present your case if you're actually right. I understand that it can be an emotional issue- as I said I think the idea of stealing men's identities is terrible too- but you must leave emotion out of things you write if you expect anyone to respond favorably. FACTS are what will convince people. Now I am choosing to not be totally insulted by your accusations because I want to know what facts you have first. As I said, I only know Vlad through emails and have no reason to doubt his word, however I've never met him or seen his organization at work, so I cannot say I know for certain that all he says is true. I very much want to know if you know something about this situation that I do not.

At the moment all you have succeeded in showing is that by excavating German graves, even if he notifies the WASt, he is violating that agreement.

Matt

[benny-vermisst]

Hello @Matt,

what you write, much can be true.
Exactly so much wrong.


I was offending? I am sorry now if you feel it so.
But, No little childrens here are and doesn't here therefore go either that a toys car was stolen.

It dully all about a very serious here: around the trade with identities of people !!!


In this thing I must prove nothing.
You must prove that you do all possible to avoid the disappearance of identities. But It doesn't looks like this, in the moment, in the past.

But first is it a thing for Vladimir..
To this we have written him up. He doesn't answer.
At all events this alone is answer enough in the moment.

It so simply making this topic sure
Simply having the approval shown.
Matt, do this. You have good contact to him.

But is valid at the moment:
You dully don't take part if vlad finds these IDtags!!! That they are "clean " therefore you cannot say either!

What you would say if the topic would concern fallen American or Canadian here?
Would you then be so careless too??

No, here cannot be valid: In doubt for the defendant!!!

It wouldn't be this a new popular sport in Russia, loots of graveplaces, nobody would say something.
Unfortunately, but this is it.
I myself already was in Stalingrad too. Also in others place in russia.

I myself have seen these places if the looters are gone.
You never will be able get an idea of this !!!

I have never claimed that he has made $ 50,000 only with the sale of ID-tags.
But, simply take once his assessments at Ebay, not only the 432, but everyone and then take the average sales volume of his last single auctions you land at this number.

Whether the Wast can begin something with single ID-tags ,you don't decide, Vladimir doesn't decide!!
Only the Wast can decide this. After an examination !!!
And she does it to !!
Also which the ID-tags be found without human remains !!!
All details are registered !!!
Around e.g. avoid that not begin of the front again, if the ID-tag appears someplace again.
She makes a note of everything in the documents of the soldier.
The most important one is natural: where found?
And she examines: Already correspond these news information to everyone availably?

@ Matt:
According to the law the Wast is a legal successor of all German forces from WWII
All objects of identfications, such as ID-tags, documents, awards, are in the possession of a German soldier, belong theoretically to the Wast, when finding!!!

This is truly you can make sure yourself if you want.
I like to forward a corresponding e-mail to the Wast from you, if you wish.

Today, approx. 2 million German soldiers are still regarded as missed.
Everybody is a destiny.
If only one cannot be cleared by it, because his ID-tag was stolen, then this is one destiny too much !!!!
Every unsolved destiny, every find of a looted soldier grave
= is here in Germany or somewhere else in the World a family which certainty will never know what has happened with this relative.


And once again:
Only German authorities are authorized to allow persons or groups the search for German soldiers in Russia.

I admit, we have slept here for a long time, too !!!
But there is end now with that.
We will see to it that this topic comes to the public.
We become make the life difficult for the grave robbers and, sorry, also for the careless buyers !!!
No matter whether they come from, Germany (also here we have had this problem, though much small, after controls were tightened and severe punishments threaten), Russia or somewhere else.

P.S. We do all of this not only with german ID-tags!!
No, with ID-tags or similar from all countries, which have fought in WWII.
In the moment we are also in contact with amercan autorities about one US-ID-tag, who is offered at german ebay.

[Matt L]

Hello @Matt,

what you write, much can be true.
Exactly so much wrong.


I was offending? I am sorry now if you feel it so.
But, No little childrens here are and doesn't here therefore go either that a toys car was stolen.

Your very first statement was about how blind we are, and you basically accused anyone who has ever bought items that had been dug up of not caring if they supported grave-robbing and the destruction of the identity of a man missing-in-action... would you not be offended if I accused you of that? And you've done it again by suggesting that we should not be offended because we're not children- i.e. only children would be offended. You're not thinking before you write again.

It dully all about a very serious here: around the trade with identities of people !!!


In this thing I must prove nothing.
You must prove that you do all possible to avoid the disappearance of identities. But It doesn't looks like this, in the moment, in the past.

Okay- are you saying that no one should ever own an Erkennungsmarke? Not under any circumstances? Because one found on or in the ground WITHOUT being associated with human remains is NOT someone's identity. As I wrote, thousands and thousands of discs are found lying around every year- none of them is destroying someone's identity, so what is the problem with owning them?

And yes, you do have to prove things if you insist on making public accusations. You accused Vladimir of being a grave-robber and someone who destroys fallen men's identities- what proof do you have that this is true? It is out-and-out slander to say something like that without evidence.

But first is it a thing for Vladimir..
To this we have written him up. He doesn't answer.
At all events this alone is answer enough in the moment.

Well I wrote to him as my friend yesterday after all this and he replied because I wasn't insulting and raving like you apparently were. I was quite correct that his not replying immediately was because of your attitude and not because he is hiding anything. So I strongly suggest that if you actually expect anyone to do anything other than ignore you, you try being calm and present a rational case.

It so simply making this topic sure
Simply having the approval shown.
Matt, do this. You have good contact to him.

I did- he tells me that he is unaware of a Volksbund office in Volgograd, but that a team of German researchers come every summer to work with Russian teams including his own group POISK. He, and I both, have never even heard of your organization until yesterday. I find no links to it on the WASt or Volksbund websites...

But is valid at the moment:
You dully don't take part if vlad finds these IDtags!!! That they are "clean " therefore you cannot say either!

Vladimir assures me that while they often find German relics and identity discs, only very rarely do they find German soldiers. When that happens, the Erkennungsmarken are not sold but are kept for the WASt and the German researchers who come in the summers. That is what I can say. The burden of proof is on the person making claims- you claim his group robs graves, but you provide no proof of it.

What you would say if the topic would concern fallen American or Canadian here?
Would you then be so careless too??

Again you're being insulting suggesting that people only care about soldiers of their own nationality. I would expect anyone who finds a fallen soldier, whatever his nationality was, to do the same thing- notify the proper authorities. I believe it when Germans of Belgians or others tell me they do this, why should I disbelieve Vladimir? Because he is Russian?

No, here cannot be valid: In doubt for the defendant!!!

I agree with you here- but we are not talking about giving someone the benefit of the doubt; that would be true if no one bothered to talk with him and just decided to assume he is being proper. I correspond with him directly and he tells me this, and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt his word. ONCE AGAIN, if you have proof that he is lying, present it! Does the WASt claim that they've never received a report from Vlad or his group? Is there no German research group that digs in Volgograd with POISK every summer?

I have never claimed that he has made $ 50,000 only with the sale of ID-tags.
But, simply take once his assessments at Ebay, not only the 432, but everyone and then take the average sales volume of his last single auctions you land at this number.

So you basically made up this number, is that it? You claim he's becoming wealthy selling men's identities one day and now you say it's an estimate based on sales volume or some such nonsense. Basically, you cannot prove what you say- again.

Whether the Wast can begin something with single ID-tags ,you don't decide, Vladimir doesn't decide!!
Only the Wast can decide this. After an examination !!!
And she does it to !!

What are you talking about?! It's simple logic that an Erkennungsmarke without a body gives no information whatsoever about the man who carried it- or am I missing something here? Explain this to me- what possibly could it tell anyone?

Also which the ID-tags be found without human remains !!!
All details are registered !!!
Around e.g. avoid that not begin of the front again, if the ID-tag appears someplace again.
She makes a note of everything in the documents of the soldier.
The most important one is natural: where found?
And she examines: Already correspond these news information to everyone availably?

Are you saying that the WASt wants to know details like where an Erkennungsmarke was found even if it is all alone without a body? If this is the case then fine- I'd be happy to ask anyone I know who discovers any to notify them of the find, position, etc., but what possible use could that information be?

@ Matt:
According to the law the Wast is a legal successor of all German forces from WWII
All objects of identfications, such as ID-tags, documents, awards, are in the possession of a German soldier, belong theoretically to the Wast, when finding!!!

Is this an actual international law you're talking about? Because I've read of people in Germany finding Erkennungsmarken while digging in their gardens or walking in the forest- and I don't know if all of them notify anyone, or realize that they should do so. Only when people find a soldier with the disc do they do anything- as seems logical.

This is truly you can make sure yourself if you want.
I like to forward a corresponding e-mail to the Wast from you, if you wish.

I believe I will contact them and see what clarification I can get with respect to the information you present. Hopefully they can explain to me if indeed they want all information, even if it doesn't seem useful, and the specifics of what is German law, what is international law, what is agreement and what is just what they'd like. And, of course, what they don't need at all.

Today, approx. 2 million German soldiers are still regarded as missed.
Everybody is a destiny.

Okay, not to be picky, but your website states that 800 000 soldiers are listed as missing- I always thought the number was higher myself, but my point is that you cannot make valid arguments if you keep changing the information you present.

If only one cannot be cleared by it, because his ID-tag was stolen, then this is one destiny too much !!!!
Every unsolved destiny, every find of a looted soldier grave
= is here in Germany or somewhere else in the World a family which certainty will never know what has happened with this relative.

Absolutely! I agree 100%- my only issue with what you keep writing is that you don't have any proof that this is happening in the case we're discussing. Sure it does happen- I've seen pictures of it myself- but the people I know who dig are all friends and all assure me they do the proper thing if they ever find a soldier.

And once again:
Only German authorities are authorized to allow persons or groups the search for German soldiers in Russia.

Well it doesn't actually say anything at all about searching- it only says that Germany has the right to decide who will excavate graves that are found. The fact is that Vlad's group isn't specifically looking for German soldiers- their original idea was to give proper burials to the thousands of anonymous Soviet soldiers who died at Stalingrad. Any discovery of a German soldier was just a side-effect essentially, so you cannot accuse them of doing anything wrong there. In fact, Vlad tells me that discovery of German soldiers is very rare- he says that they find hundreds of Erkennungsmarken for every grave that is discovered. Just like elsewhere in Europe where the war was fought. Given that nearly 90 000 men were made prisoner at the end of the battle, it makes perfect sense that there would be tens of thousands of Erkennungsmarken taken from the prisoners and discarded as appears to be the case elsewhere. Given how long the battle raged and how brutal it was, sites of Feldlazaretten would also be sources of lost or discarded discs- as is the case elsewhere as well. Recovering these pieces isn't a violation of anything at all.

If it's indeed true that only German agencies should be recovering remains, then fine- that's something people should know. If the WASt cares where a disc is found even if no remains are with it, then fine, that's something people should know too (although I want them to tell me that because it doesn't make sense to me).

I admit, we have slept here for a long time, too !!!
But there is end now with that.
We will see to it that this topic comes to the public.
We become make the life difficult for the grave robbers and, sorry, also for the careless buyers !!!
No matter whether they come from, Germany (also here we have had this problem, though much small, after controls were tightened and severe punishments threaten), Russia or somewhere else.

Well I suggest you maintain some moderation in your statements or you may not be welcome here for very long. Threats and insults aren't appropriate- as I said before, you should be trying to make allies, not enemies. Talking about grave-robbing without the tiniest bit of proof is not appropriate...

[Matt L]

Here the original e-Mail from the Wast (Wehrmachtauskunftstelle, responsible for all questions about missed or fallen german soldiers), in german language, but easy to understand:

Von: …….@wast.Verwalt-Berlin.de
Gesendet: 17.03.06 08:49:28
An: ingo@vermisst-gefallen.net
Betreff: Erkennungsmarken

Sehr geehrter Herr Wenzeck,

vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage vom 15. März 2006.

Zu den genannten EM gebe ich Ihnen folgendes Ermittlungsergebnis:

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-SIGN...QQcmdZViewItem

5. Nachr. Ers. Abt. 1 -5068- = Träger gilt ab Januar 1943 in Stalingrad als vermisst.

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-INFA...QQcmdZViewItem

11. IR. 238 -42- = Träger gilt als vermisst in Stalingrad.

http://cgi.ebay.de/RELIC-GERMAN-ARTI...QQcmdZViewItem

9. A. R. 4 -103- = Träger gilt als vermisst in Stalingrad.

Da meine Dienststelle als Rechtsnachfolgebehörde der Wehrmachtsauskunftsstelle (WASt) zuständig ist, bitte ich um die Übersendung der EM. ---> DO YOU UNDERSTAND???? THE WAST WANT THESE ID-TAGS!!!!!

Mit freundlichen Grüßen


Deutsche Dienststelle (WASt)

Tel.: 030-419-04-XXX

I asked Vladimir about these discs and he tells me that NONE of them were found with human remains- they were all simply found last fall by themselves. This means that they can provide no information WHATSOEVER about the fates of the men who once carried them. They will still be listed as vermisst. In fact, Vlad tells me that the last time a German solder was found was in mid-July 2005 at the time a German group was working at the site...

Matt