DKiG document for discussion

[InfanterieSammler]

You asked the question(s) and I gave you an answer.

Your reply of "You can't be serious!!!!!!!" was an emphatic response, implying that my answer was way off base. Then you felt the need to condescend by telling me to "Hit them books."

Message received.

Perhaps next time when asking for help on a topic you clearly don't understand, you will not go out of your way to insult the person trying to help you.

No worries though, I know exactly how I plan on avoiding this situation with you in the future.

John

[Cole Bush]

Sir,

the document is original, so everything is right.
since it is early SS, so it is not so surprised.
and sometimes companie chef and companie fuhrer
were used optionally. don't care this. and i think your mentioned
companie fuhrer appeared in 1943. not early 1942!
please take the time frame! and that time the SS division named 'Reich',
not 'Das Reich', that i mean early SS, pls thinking qustions in accociation with
the historic time frame.
and DK BU usually occurs mistake.
all in all, this is original.

[herkules]

KpFhr vs KpChef

Hi John,

sorry for my bad English ...

nevertheless thanks for your serious and comprehensive contributions !

I think the question has been answered and we all can be happy now !

Thank you very much !

In admiration !

Wolf

[Frontalschaden]

Hi again,

before I will go to bed ....

please inform : what is " coy " ........

couldn't find that term anywhere !!

Thanks

Wolf

John M. Donovan has answered it...

How embarrassing for you.

If they don't mind the company, I will let our esteemed English colleagues handle this one.

John

@herkules

Coy is a military abbreviation (abbr.) for company. Other military abbreviations are Bde for Brigade... and so on.


You're not serious, are you?
Are you using secondarily sources like this one?:

http://gliederungundstellenbesetzung...-fuhrer-d.html

Try to use primary sources !

A flight instructor in Texas used to say : "Hit them books" !!!



The term Kompaniechef and/or Kompanieführer is not (!) linked to a time period. (Early or late Waffen SS)


The terms "Kompaniechef", "Kompanieführer" and "Mit der Führung beauftragt" (M.d.F.b.) are exactly defined in german WW II (and nowadays) military regulations.

The Kompaniechef was a position according to the KStAN (Kriegsstärke und Ausrüstungsnachweis) The holder of the KStAN position Kompaniechef must be a SS Hauptsturmführer (in most of the cases) and must have absolved the coy (company) leaders course.
If this SS Hauptsturmführer (with KStAN position/rank + coy leaders course) was K.I.A. than, a SS Obersturmführer, SS Untersturmführer (etcetera) without KStAN rank and without coy leaders course can take over the command. In this case, the SS Obersturmführer is only a Kompanieführer, but not a Kompaniechef.

There is a german saying:
A Kompaniechef is Kompanieführer, too; but a Kompanieführer is not necessarily a Kompaniechef.

In german (according to my bad english)

Der Dienstposten Kompaniechef war eine KSTaN Stelle die durch den Dienstgrad Hauptsturmführer zu besetzen war, der einen Kompanieführerlehrgang absolviert haben musste.
Wurde aus anderweitigen Gründen (Urlaub, Verwundung, Tod des Kp Chefs) ein anderer Dienstgrad (Obersturmführer/Untersturmführer) auf den Dienstposten gesetzt, der keinen Kompanieführerlehrgang hatte und nicht den in der KSTaN beschriebenen Dienstgrad besaß, so war er lediglich Kompanieführer.

Um einen Frontalschaden zu vermeiden hier noch einmal

ein Soldbuch Eintrag ...

@herkules: Um einen Frontalschaden zu vermeiden: Your Soldbuch signatures are from a SS Obersturmführer. A SS Obersturmführer can`t be a Kompaniechef, he is a Kompanieführer, ever !
(Read above, um einen Frontalschaden zu vermeiden)



Here are some examples for Kompanieführer / Kompaniechef of the early SS Totenkopf Division. (Primary sources)
Check the red markers:
+ SS Obersturmführer = Kompanieführer
+ SS Hauptsturmführer = Kompaniechef








And here are some Frundsberg sources...













Totenkopf again...




And here is an example for a not KStAN Kommandeur. (Without the right rank and without the Kommadeurs course he is only the Führer of the II. Abteilung, but not the Kommandeur II. Abteilung. Therefor, he signed with i.V. (by proxy / per pro) for his Kommandeur in absentia.





Best regards, Fronti


P.S:
I hope I didn`t made so much grammatical mistakes.
If you find some mistakes, you can keep it.

[Frontalschaden]

Hello

For the guys of you, who can read german language...

A short text passagee out of Herbert Maegers book "Verlorene Ehre - Verratene Treue" (Lost honor - betrayed fidelity)

Herbert Maeger served under Max Hansen in 14./LAH, in 9./SS PzGrenRgt 1 and later on in 36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS DIRLEWANGER.

For those of you, who can`t understand german language: It is the same, that I wrote in #19. (Only in shortform)






Best regards, Fronti

[peterm]

Hi Fronti!

You are absolutely correct concerning the regulations (although I don't like Maeger's book as a source). On the other hand, not everything happend within the regulations... (see attachement: "Kompanie-Chef in 1942, Hauptmann in 1943).

Kind regards, Peter

[Edward]

Hi Fronti!

You are absolutely correct concerning the regulations (although I don't like Maeger's book as a source). On the other hand, not everything happend within the regulations... (see attachement: "Kompanie-Chef in 1942, Hauptmann in 1943).

Kind regards, Peter

Nice looking couple of Wehrpaß pages there Peter!

[peterm]

Nice looking couple of Wehrpaß pages there Peter!

Thanks Eward, its also of a DKiG-winner.

Kind regards, Peter

[Edward]

Thanks Eward, its also of a DKiG-winner.

Kind regards, Peter

Very nice then indeed!

[Frontalschaden]

Hi Fronti!

You are absolutely correct concerning the regulations (although I don't like Maeger's book as a source). On the other hand, not everything happend within the regulations... (see attachement: "Kompanie-Chef in 1942, Hauptmann in 1943).

Kind regards, Peter

Hello

Nice WP, but where you can read "Kompaniechef" ?

I agree with you, that Maegers book is only a secondary source, and that there were strict regulations and that they were not ever enforced in 100%. That`s fact.

The term Kompaniechef / Kompanieführer is regulated in the valid K.st.N.
If the K.st.N said, that a Captain have to be on the first position of the coy and a Captain is real on this place, than he is a Kompaniechef. If the K.st.N said Captain and there is a Oberleutnant on this place, than he is only a Kompanieführer.

Have a look at a K.st.N. (translated into english)

http://www.militaryresearch.org/Kstn...20Inf%20Co.pdf



Best regards, Fronti

[Simon O.]

Some examples from stellenbesetzung lists from 1945.

Of course an oberleutnant could and often was a Kp.Chef, in war the rules had to be flexible, especially towards the end.

Here from Grenadier Brigade 388 and GJR 141

[Frontalschaden]

Of course an oberleutnant could and often was a Kp.Chef, [...]

Hello

Yes, an Oberleutnant could be a Kompaniechef. It depends on the actual KstAN.
That's what I want to tell in my last postings. (It is very hard to explain with my rusty school englisch.)
If the KstAN said Oberleutnant, than the Oberleutnant is Kompaniechef and the Leutnant at the same position is Kompanieführer.


Best regards, Fronti

[peterm]

Hello

Nice WP, but where you can read "Kompaniechef" ?

Best regards, Fronti

Hi Fronti!

Look at the left side, between "Oberleutnant 1942" and "Oberleutnant 1943", there You will find "Komp.Chef"...

I agree with all Your statements, just wanted to show a Wehrpaß with an entry for "Kompaniechef" for an Oberleutnant.

Kind regards, Peter

[Simon O.]

Hello

Yes, an Oberleutnant could be a Kompaniechef. It depends on the actual KstAN.
That's what I want to tell in my last postings. (It is very hard to explain with my rusty school englisch.)
If the KstAN said Oberleutnant, than the Oberleutnant is Kompaniechef and the Leutnant at the same position is Kompanieführer.


Best regards, Fronti

Perhaps i misunderstand you here but as you can see from the example above from Gren.Brig 388, both chef and fuehrer are used for oberleutnante of the same unit type. Ie. An infanterie kompanie.

In the first years of the war you can even find majors as Kp.Chef.

My point is, the stipulated rank in a kstn is not the deciding factor as to whether the term chef or fuehrer is used.

[Frontalschaden]

In the first years of the war you can even find majors as Kp.Chef.

In the last years of the war, you can find Majors as Kompaniechef, too !
(Some special coys have the rank Major in the KStan)
But most of them wasn`t filled with a major, because there was a lack of COs. Most of them was filled by another (lower) rank. => Kompanieführer.

My point is, the stipulated rank in a kstn is not the deciding factor as to whether the term chef or fuehrer is used.

Of course, it is !
The combination of both is the deciding factor.

If both (the KStAN rank and the actual rank of the CO at the position in front of a coy) is the same, than it is a Kompaniechef.
If the rank of the CO is below the rank in the KStAN, than he is a Kompanieführer !
(CO = comissioned officer)


Best regards, Fronti