Totenkopf, Tiger Wehrpass

[GOTZVONB]

Totenkopf, tiger wehrpass

I agree with Kuratorium about the date on page 1. I checked a dozen or more of my soldbuch/wehrpass entries for the page 1 date, plus other pages as well, and not one of them uses the zero system of dates; either the month abbrev. is used, or a single digit, and in some cases Roman numerals, but no dates such as 07,08,09, etc. It could be an original entry, but I'd like to see other examples from known soldbuchs/wehrpass that use a zero to abbreviate a month. Mr. Pittman was a great help to me in identifying a fake SS wehrpass that was offered to me, so I have a lot of respect for him when it comes to authenticating wartime handwriting. It seems that more than a few red flags have gone up concerning this book, so I would definitely have it researched further to protect yourself from possibly owning a fake SS wehrpass. IMO, SS panzer books, whether soldbuch or wehrpass, need to be scrutinized very thoroughly before purchase, as this type of book is very highly sought after by many collectors, and counterfeiters are very aware that these books can bring top dollar from enthusiastic buyers. I'd advise you to listen to the experienced collectors that have already commented about it on this forum. Again, IMO, these guys know what they're talking about, and it'd be in your best interest to heed any red flags that have already been mentioned. As a fellow SS doc collector, I hope that you can prove the authenticity of this book, as I hate to see any collector find out that a prized book in his/her collection is fake.

Best regards,

Tom

[Hundestaffel]

Interesting discussion / observations here.....

Two more of my cents .....it was not uncommon to have SS members trained by Wehrmacht Units - i.e. this fellows "Tiger" training by Wehrmacht Tiger 500 - many of my SS KL Hundefuhrer ID's show Hunde training at various SS and Wehrmacht facilities (I once owned a "Panther" Driver's Wehrpass who undertook his Panzer Driver training at an NSKK School)

Also, I have seen this exact "Tiger" stamp in a very Legitimate 500 Tiger Radio Operators Wehrpass (underneath the "Tiger" stamp in that Wehrpass the model of Radio he specialized on was listed).

Admittedly, The "visual optics" on this one (especially some of the specific handwriting) unquestionably give one an immediate queasy feeling that is hard to shake..... that said, we all have seen horrific, pathetic and / or childlike handwriting in legit Wehrpasses / Soldbuchs....at any rate, if I am indeed be wrong about this one being a "good one" I'll take my lumps like a Big Dog (and keep my nose in what I really know - SS KL Hunde)

:-)


"Hundestaffel"

[CWP]

I would say all three award enteries are in the same hand

I would add to this also the last wound entry on page 34, dated months later still, done with the same pen, same ink.

[PzV]

Thanks for the feedback and I am checking into it from my side also. I agree that it was also not unusual for SS to be trained by army units and I think I have some documentation with Pz Abt 500 stamps to cross-check. I have often noted on a "Zweitschrift" that not as much care is taken for the entries and thought that to be the case here.

[christof]

I agree (and apologyse) to be a beat to fast to see this Wehrpass. Like Mister Dogtag ask page one, we can see the number of his Erkennungsmarke (SS-T. Inf. Ers. Btl. III n° 88) for a soldier who start his duty in september 1941. For me this tag number is wrong and definitly not enought hight...

[mufasa]

a very interesting and instructive discussion ... for the statistic: I checked the date on my Wehrpass and only 9 out of 52 have the date of the month with the number and not with the word (extended or shortened) ... and all the 9 with the number are without the zero before......

[Bobbe]

[Oberbootsmann]

That would be one of the best fakes I've ever seen. Except the date mistake.
Btw., I've got a WP / SB lot of the SS Flak Ersatz Regiment / SS Flak Abteilung 5. The soldier fought in the same battles at the end of the war than your SS man (Stuhlweißenburg).
If desired I'll open a thread for the lot.

Regards

[Panzer Rob]

An intriguing piece indeed.

I'd have to have this one in hand and do a very thorough inspection before making a decision one way or the other, but based on what I see from the scans Jim has posted there are multiple entries which lead me to question the authenticity of this Wehrpass.

For starters I'd say cross reference the TK signatures, but then for just a thousand dollars or so (less if your lucky) one can obtain a complete set of Wolfgang Vopersal's "Soldaten, Kämpfer, Kameraden: Marsch und Kämpfe der SS-Totenkopf-Division" which contains the information needed to fake many of the entries -- and with correct dates -- so a much more in-depth study of the handwriting, stamps and other details must be done.

I have great faith in my good friend "Kuratorium" and based on his knowledge and experience I'd be extremely skeptical of any document or ID he finds questionable. I agree with a good deal of what he (and a few others) wrote here so no need to repeat what has already been said... However I personally would not flag an entry for a SS member being trained by a Wehrmacht unit as it's a known fact that this did happen.

That said, there are stamps, handwriting and in particular a few signatures in this Wehrpass which require a much closer look and in-depth study, and without giving it a closer look I must say that my initial gut reaction is not exactly positive. As I said I'd have to see this one in hand and really examine the entries before I could give an opinion I'd feel comfortable standing behind. As I consider Jim to be a good friend I'd be willing to have a in-hand look at the ID and cross-reference the entries and signatures with the information contained within the various publications I own dealing with the T-Division's history (including the complete hardcover first edition of Vopersal's "Soldaten, Kämpfer, Kameraden...") as well as the various T-Division documents and IDs I own. But again, when it comes to handwriting there are few people who's opinion I trust more than "Kuratorium's." From my experience, if he says an entry or signature is questionable - or flat-out bogs - it probably is.

Sorry I couldn't be of more help right now..... It's late here, I've been working long hours, traveling all over Europe and North America and I'm in the process of looking at boats and a new car so I have very little time for the hobby or the net at the moment.

Rob

[besslein]

im sure Hans (kuratorium) i always wonder abaut your user name is right here

[jmark]

Very interesting discussion. I've really started to get into SB/WP over the last few months and have tonnes to learn, so dissecting this "questionable" WP is an eye-opener for me. I admire kuratorium for standing up and saying he had a bad feeling when everyone'e else was overwhelmingly positive.

All the best,
Jason

[jmark]

That would be one of the best fakes I've ever seen. Except the date mistake.

Jim, if you don't mind me asking, did you pay a lot for this WP (no need to give a figure)? If this is a top-quality fake, then the sale price would have to justify the effort.

Jason

[PzV]

Hello Jason, yes, I did pay a lot for this one and it was out of a collection from a collector in Kaiserslautern who has had it for about a year in his collection. As mentioned, I had shown this to a number of long year collectors who found it to be a good buy due to it's rarity. I will also be visiting with Karl-Heinz Münch this week and we will go over it together. Rob, and all others, thanks for your feedback and if this is a fake, it fooled me when I purchased it. I know the seller and don't think that he knowingly sold a fake but as we all know, SS is deadly. A good friend of mine who has helped me many times in the past also found some more "red flags" and I will go over these and post them as I have time.

best regards,

Jim

Kuratorium, jetzt habe ich Bauchschmerzen, aber vielen Dank!

[kuratorium]

However I personally would not flag an entry for a SS member being trained by a Wehrmacht unit as it's a known fact that this did happen.

Rob,
I´m sorry - I probably did not express clearly enough (my English is unfortunately very deficient).
Of course - I know that was quite common practice, that SS-members attended various professional trainings in the Heer, and training for the heavy tanks crew was of course no exception.
But I had rather problem with the type of used stamps ( see my older post).

Also, I have seen this exact "Tiger" stamp in a very Legitimate 500 Tiger Radio Operators Wehrpass (underneath the "Tiger" stamp in that Wehrpass the model of Radio he specialized on was listed).

Dr.Husta,
could you maybe find a picture with this entry?
It would certainly be very interesting for comparison!

im sure Hans (kuratorium) i always wonder abaut your user name is right here

Hello my old friend!
There is nothing strange- the famous "Kuratorium" organisation is just matter of my heart, and one of the main points of my collecting interest .

Kuratorium, jetzt habe ich Bauchschmerzen, aber vielen Dank!

Jim,
nichts zu danken, man lernt halt nie aus...

And -
I wanted also to say, that probably none of you will be successful in an effort to find a period date stamp in "zero" format (01,02, 03...), because (as I read on the Internet), this format come into use until the arrival of postwar computer age.
And if there is such a fundamental error at the first page of this Wehrpass, what we can think about all the other entries?
I see also a other huge problem - the Wehrpass maker reads this discussion of course with us, and he never makes the same mistake again...

[m-e-h-t]

filling up the date with a "0" started with the computer age, was never done in TR period. This fact alone is a dead give away for that WP.