Steve, Understand your Comment about the SWB Shall leave it to the new owner to Discuss if he so wishes
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The Last today SB from a STUG Man for Rob...
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Originally posted by Justin P View PostTowards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!
It's possible he might have crewed a StuG while serving in the 1./904 but with the lack of a GAB or a Kampftage sheet it's impossible to say. The awards listed indicate that he probably did not participate in any direct combat, but served in a support role. The wound badge he received in September of 1942 (for grenade splinters in his right knee late January/early Feb.1942 I believe) could have been for a number of things.
Originally posted by Justin P View PostBut at this Point he under took the drivers award due to a change in his duties(?) In my Opnion he lost his Left arm Crewing a Stug at some Point.
Originally posted by Justin P View PostIn Hand inspection under magnification shows Tell tail Signs that his left sleave is Normarly Folded up. I welcome Others Opnions on this Subject!
Personally I don't see anything in this Soldbuch that would indicate he crewed a StuG. I would not buy this Soldbuch with the impression that he was anything other than admin.
But that's just my opinion.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on all of the above, Justin!
Rob
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Originally posted by Justin P View PostRob, I'm not going to Be drawn into Extracted online Discusion with your Self, we both have are own Opnions
Originally posted by Justin P View PostTowards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!
Notice there aren't any awards listed that would help support the claim that he crewed a StuG. Matter of fact, the awards listed would imply that he did NOT crew one and served simply in a support roll.
Originally posted by Justin P View PostIn my Opnion he lost his Left arm Crewing a Stug at some Point.
Originally posted by Justin P View PostI welcome Others Opnions on this Subject!
Thanks,
Rob
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Rob's explanation is spot on.
Why anyone would assume he was a StuG crewman based on the uniform photo, or his VwA is conjecture. HQ and various support personnel did in fact wear the StuG uniform. His wounding could very well have occured while driving a support vehicle, or even simply standing around in a bad spot at the wrong time.
There were many other vehicles used in StuG units from which an award of the Kraftfahrabzeichen were given.
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To be fair the E-stand ad doesn't mention him being a Stug crew member and does link to this thread.
I do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.
Of course we've been here before a number of times. For example, in this case an Hetzer 'crewman', dodgy GAB award not withstanding:
Soldbuch to a Hetzer crew member
As for mis-representing (or nore accurately' sexing up') items on E-stand (or wherever else) it has always gone on. What about this recent one:
Wehrpass Kursk 25.Pz.Gr.Div./107 Panzer Brigade Market Garden
Remnants of 25 PzG. were used to form 107. Pz. Brigade but this was in August, not September. This man was sent to the new 25 PzG - if he'd been part of 107. Pz Brigade his units on page 12-13 would have represented this. Although it's an interesting late war Western Front WP I'm sure it wouldn't have sold for 375 Euros without the Market Garden 'connection'.
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Originally posted by Gary T View PostI do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.
Let's forget for a minute the soldbuch of Justin ... but PLEASE don't forget that this is, as Rob has rightly pointed out, a discussion forum. I am grateful if some points questionable facts out to me before I buy an item. Because of other guys who kept an eye on the estand WAF was always a relatively secure place - please let's keep it that way.
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Ladies and Gentlemen!
Firstly I thank Gary T For the constructive Comments, Please Note there Was no Mention of this Man Being a Stug Crew Member in the Sales Description!!
Secondly I have not Mislead anyone into a False Sale, The Buyer Agreed to Purchase this before Roberts Post dated 06-02-2011 I then expressed my own! Opinion based on having this Book in Hand! on this Man being a Crew Member at some Point.
Thirdly, I pointed this New Discussion out to the Buyer with a Offer of a Full Refund Now, Or if he was not happy after a hands on inspection! Judging by His Reply he has Good experience with Stug SB. I fail to see what I have done to Justify the Demands accusations. Love and Peace People!
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Originally posted by Gary T View PostTo be fair the E-stand ad doesn't mention him being a Stug crew member and does link to this thread.Originally posted by Justin P View PostTowards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!
Originally posted by Gary T View PostOf course we've been here before a number of times. For example, in this case an Hetzer 'crewman', dodgy GAB award not withstanding:
Soldbuch to a Hetzer crew member
I'll be the first to admit that the GAB entry is questionable and that the burned page does throw up a red flag.
However, seeing as how the other guy (Henner's Soldbuch) was awarded an EKII, and add to the fact that the 2.Kompanie of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 was outfitted with Hetzers yet the Stabsbatterie of StuG.Brigade 904 Justin claims was outfitted with StuGs did not have any, I'd say there's a better chance that Henner's guy saw combat, and possibly inside an AFV, over the guy in the Soldbuch sold by Justin.
Furthermore, if you read my first post, you'll see that I clearly wrote "A Soldbuch to a Panzerjäger who served in Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 and who could quite possibly have been a Hetzer crew member. He was definitely a driver, based on the awards.........."
Never did claim anywhere that he without any doubt crewed a Hetzer
I can also tell you this..... A in-depth review by a few very advanced and respected collectors (I think one of them would even get your approval) revealed that the photo on the SA document is period applied and 100% original to the ID, which proves the man in the photo attached to the inside front cover of the Soldbuch 'IS' in fact, without any doubt, the same man the Soldbuch originally belonged to.
This little group was posted for Henner and as it is not mine. I'll let him decide on whether or not to fill you in on the rest of details.
Originally posted by Gary T View PostI do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.
Best,
Rob
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Originally posted by Gary T View PostRemnants of 25 PzG. were used to form 107. Pz. Brigade but this was in August, not September. This man was sent to the new 25 PzG - if he'd been part of 107. Pz Brigade his units on page 12-13 would have represented this. Although it's an interesting late war Western Front WP I'm sure it wouldn't have sold for 375 Euros without the Market Garden 'connection'.
As the seller of this item I'am always open for other oppinions.
Like everybody I can make mistakes and I am willing to learn from others.
I do not agree with you with the fact that as he was part of the 107 Panzer Brigade this would have mentioned in the Wehrpass.
For example:
A few months ago I bought an soldbuch and wehrpass from the same person who was with a FJ unit in Holland in 1944.
In his soldbuch this unit was written 2 or 3 times in it.
In his wehrpass this unit isn't even mentioned!
From what I know and have seen is that soldbucher are more accurate than wehrpasser.
If the new owner isn't happy with this, he may return it to me.
(it didn't sold for 375,-)
Regards,
FlorisLast edited by Floris; 06-07-2011, 05:59 AM.
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Originally posted by Rob Johnson View PostTrue, but Justin seems to be quite sure the guy did in fact crew a StuG, apparently with the Stabsbatterie/StuG.Brigade 904, and I would simply like to hear his theory behind this, as he says it was outfitted with StuGs (when actually it was not):
Gary,
I'll be the first to admit that the GAB entry is questionable and that the burned page does throw up a red flag.
However, seeing as how the other guy (Henner's Soldbuch) was awarded an EKII, and add to the fact that the 2.Kompanie of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 was outfitted with Hetzers yet the Stabsbatterie of StuG.Brigade 904 Justin claims was outfitted with StuGs did not have any, I'd say there's a better chance that Henner's guy saw combat, and possibly inside an AFV, over the guy in the Soldbuch sold by Justin.
Furthermore, if you read my first post, you'll see that I clearly wrote "A Soldbuch to a Panzerjäger who served in Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 and who could quite possibly have been a Hetzer crew member. He was definitely a driver, based on the awards.........."
Never did claim anywhere that he without any doubt crewed a Hetzer
I can also tell you this..... A in-depth review by a few very advanced and respected collectors (I think one of them would even get your approval) revealed that the photo on the SA document is period applied and 100% original to the ID, which proves the man in the photo attached to the inside front cover of the Soldbuch 'IS' in fact, without any doubt, the same man the Soldbuch originally belonged to.
This little group was posted for Henner and as it is not mine. I'll let him decide on whether or not to fill you in on the rest of details.
I completely agree with you there. A very hefty price to pay for a Soldbuch without even an EKII or GAB award entry. But as long as the new owner is happy then that's all that matters.
Best,
Rob
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