The Last today SB from a STUG Man for Rob...

[Justin P]

Steve, Understand your Comment about the SWB Shall leave it to the new owner to Discuss if he so wishes

[Panzer Rob]

Towards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!

You do realize that circa June 1944 through the end of the war there was only 1 StuG assigned to the Stab of a Sturmgeschütz Batterie, 30 StuGs in the 3 line Batteries, and '0' StuGs in the Stabsbatterie, right? The Stabsbatterie -- in which this man served -- consisted solely of admin, signals, supply, maintenance, support, etc. personnel, and without a single StuG assigned there really isn't much if any chance he would have crewed a StuG during his assignment to the Stabsbatterie.

It's possible he might have crewed a StuG while serving in the 1./904 but with the lack of a GAB or a Kampftage sheet it's impossible to say. The awards listed indicate that he probably did not participate in any direct combat, but served in a support role. The wound badge he received in September of 1942 (for grenade splinters in his right knee late January/early Feb.1942 I believe) could have been for a number of things.

But at this Point he under took the drivers award due to a change in his duties(?) In my Opnion he lost his Left arm Crewing a Stug at some Point.

Could you please enlighten us on how you arrived at this opinion? Are there any entries in the Soldbuch that indicate he lost his arm?

In Hand inspection under magnification shows Tell tail Signs that his left sleave is Normarly Folded up. I welcome Others Opnions on this Subject!

And that proves what exactly? When I was in the service we rolled our sleeves all the time and we all had both arms. I'm not sure what having a sleeve rolled up - or how the loss of a arm for that matter - could prove that he served in a StuG? That's 'quite' a imaginative stretch!

Personally I don't see anything in this Soldbuch that would indicate he crewed a StuG. I would not buy this Soldbuch with the impression that he was anything other than admin.

But that's just my opinion.


Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on all of the above, Justin!

Rob

[Justin P]

Rob, I'm not going to Be drawn into Extracted online Discusion with your Self, we both have are own Opnions

[Jochen1000]

I take it this was sold two hours ago for the hefty amount of GBP 475 as the soldbuch of a STUG-crewmember?

And it is left to the new owner to find out (again) that this guy was actually just support personnel? And in order to justify all this the questions of Rob are simply ignored?

[Panzer Rob]

Rob, I'm not going to Be drawn into Extracted online Discusion with your Self, we both have are own Opnions

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - nobody is calling you out for that. I think the bigger issue is that you have now sold this as a "StuG crew" Soldbuch when there isn't much to support that claim, and now that you're being asked to explain you're simply avoiding the questions by saying you don't want to get drawn into a discussion.

Towards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!

No, it was not. If you re-read what I wrote, or if you just do you own research you will find that the Stabsbatterie did not have any StuGs. Zero. How could he crew a StuG while in the Stabsbatterie if it was not outfitted with any?

Notice there aren't any awards listed that would help support the claim that he crewed a StuG. Matter of fact, the awards listed would imply that he did NOT crew one and served simply in a support roll.

In my Opnion he lost his Left arm Crewing a Stug at some Point.

That's fine. I think a lot of us would like to hear how you came to that opinion - and if he did in fact lose his arm, how that would prove that he crewed a StuG - and while serving in a section that was not even equipped with StuGs. As pointed out, there is no silver wound badge entry - nor any entry stating he had his arm amputated (or that it was even wounded for that matter). As I said earlier, I'm not sure what having a sleeve rolled up - or how the loss of a arm for that matter - could prove that he served in a StuG? That's 'quite' a imaginative stretch!

I welcome Others Opnions on this Subject!

And we'd like to hear you elaborate more on all of the above. After all, this is a discussion forum, and you did sell a Soldbuch here that some might feel was misrepresented.

Thanks,
Rob

[Edward]

Rob's explanation is spot on.

Why anyone would assume he was a StuG crewman based on the uniform photo, or his VwA is conjecture. HQ and various support personnel did in fact wear the StuG uniform. His wounding could very well have occured while driving a support vehicle, or even simply standing around in a bad spot at the wrong time.

There were many other vehicles used in StuG units from which an award of the Kraftfahrabzeichen were given.

[Justin P]

OK ok the mob demands a reply! The new owner is aware of this thread! As I mentiond before its not mine to discuse any further. No bun fights please

[Gary T]

To be fair the E-stand ad doesn't mention him being a Stug crew member and does link to this thread.

I do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.

Of course we've been here before a number of times. For example, in this case an Hetzer 'crewman', dodgy GAB award not withstanding:

Soldbuch to a Hetzer crew member

As for mis-representing (or nore accurately' sexing up') items on E-stand (or wherever else) it has always gone on. What about this recent one:

Wehrpass Kursk 25.Pz.Gr.Div./107 Panzer Brigade Market Garden

Remnants of 25 PzG. were used to form 107. Pz. Brigade but this was in August, not September. This man was sent to the new 25 PzG - if he'd been part of 107. Pz Brigade his units on page 12-13 would have represented this. Although it's an interesting late war Western Front WP I'm sure it wouldn't have sold for 375 Euros without the Market Garden 'connection'.

[SJP]

Gary T ,It's a matter of one's perspective, I personally find the Kursk connection which there is no doubt about far more interesting than any real or imagined Market Garden association. Not everything is as it appears
_______________________________________
Cheers Steve

[Jochen1000]

I do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.

Damn, and I sold two soldbücher lately for a measly 100 bucks each even though I was convinced that one of the guys was the favoured driver of Rommel and the other was secretly a member of a Brandenburger unit ...

Let's forget for a minute the soldbuch of Justin ... but PLEASE don't forget that this is, as Rob has rightly pointed out, a discussion forum. I am grateful if some points questionable facts out to me before I buy an item. Because of other guys who kept an eye on the estand WAF was always a relatively secure place - please let's keep it that way.

[Lee Luke]

sb

Agreed.

[Justin P]

Ladies and Gentlemen!

Firstly I thank Gary T For the constructive Comments, Please Note there Was no Mention of this Man Being a Stug Crew Member in the Sales Description!!

Secondly I have not Mislead anyone into a False Sale, The Buyer Agreed to Purchase this before Roberts Post dated 06-02-2011 I then expressed my own! Opinion based on having this Book in Hand! on this Man being a Crew Member at some Point.

Thirdly, I pointed this New Discussion out to the Buyer with a Offer of a Full Refund Now, Or if he was not happy after a hands on inspection! Judging by His Reply he has Good experience with Stug SB. I fail to see what I have done to Justify the Demands accusations. Love and Peace People!

[Panzer Rob]

To be fair the E-stand ad doesn't mention him being a Stug crew member and does link to this thread.

True, but Justin seems to be quite sure the guy did in fact crew a StuG, apparently with the Stabsbatterie/StuG.Brigade 904, and I would simply like to hear his theory behind this, as he says it was outfitted with StuGs (when actually it was not):

Towards the latter stages of the War he was transferred to Stab/HQ of StuG Abt/Brigade 904 which were Equipped with Stug!

Of course we've been here before a number of times. For example, in this case an Hetzer 'crewman', dodgy GAB award not withstanding:

Soldbuch to a Hetzer crew member

Gary,

I'll be the first to admit that the GAB entry is questionable and that the burned page does throw up a red flag.

However, seeing as how the other guy (Henner's Soldbuch) was awarded an EKII, and add to the fact that the 2.Kompanie of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 was outfitted with Hetzers yet the Stabsbatterie of StuG.Brigade 904 Justin claims was outfitted with StuGs did not have any, I'd say there's a better chance that Henner's guy saw combat, and possibly inside an AFV, over the guy in the Soldbuch sold by Justin.

Furthermore, if you read my first post, you'll see that I clearly wrote "A Soldbuch to a Panzerjäger who served in Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 and who could quite possibly have been a Hetzer crew member. He was definitely a driver, based on the awards.........."

Never did claim anywhere that he without any doubt crewed a Hetzer

I can also tell you this..... A in-depth review by a few very advanced and respected collectors (I think one of them would even get your approval) revealed that the photo on the SA document is period applied and 100% original to the ID, which proves the man in the photo attached to the inside front cover of the Soldbuch 'IS' in fact, without any doubt, the same man the Soldbuch originally belonged to.

This little group was posted for Henner and as it is not mine. I'll let him decide on whether or not to fill you in on the rest of details.

I do agree that it is unlikely he was Stug crew based on awards but it is impossible to know - I guess the buyer must be convinced to lay out that sort of money which is rather high even if he had a GAB and an EK1.

I completely agree with you there. A very hefty price to pay for a Soldbuch without even an EKII or GAB award entry. But as long as the new owner is happy then that's all that matters.

Best,
Rob

[Floris]

Remnants of 25 PzG. were used to form 107. Pz. Brigade but this was in August, not September. This man was sent to the new 25 PzG - if he'd been part of 107. Pz Brigade his units on page 12-13 would have represented this. Although it's an interesting late war Western Front WP I'm sure it wouldn't have sold for 375 Euros without the Market Garden 'connection'.

Hello Gary,

As the seller of this item I'am always open for other oppinions.
Like everybody I can make mistakes and I am willing to learn from others.

I do not agree with you with the fact that as he was part of the 107 Panzer Brigade this would have mentioned in the Wehrpass.
For example:
A few months ago I bought an soldbuch and wehrpass from the same person who was with a FJ unit in Holland in 1944.
In his soldbuch this unit was written 2 or 3 times in it.
In his wehrpass this unit isn't even mentioned!
From what I know and have seen is that soldbucher are more accurate than wehrpasser.
If the new owner isn't happy with this, he may return it to me.
(it didn't sold for 375,-)

Regards,
Floris

[Justin P]

True, but Justin seems to be quite sure the guy did in fact crew a StuG, apparently with the Stabsbatterie/StuG.Brigade 904, and I would simply like to hear his theory behind this, as he says it was outfitted with StuGs (when actually it was not):

Gary,

I'll be the first to admit that the GAB entry is questionable and that the burned page does throw up a red flag.

However, seeing as how the other guy (Henner's Soldbuch) was awarded an EKII, and add to the fact that the 2.Kompanie of Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 was outfitted with Hetzers yet the Stabsbatterie of StuG.Brigade 904 Justin claims was outfitted with StuGs did not have any, I'd say there's a better chance that Henner's guy saw combat, and possibly inside an AFV, over the guy in the Soldbuch sold by Justin.

Furthermore, if you read my first post, you'll see that I clearly wrote "A Soldbuch to a Panzerjäger who served in Panzerjäger-Abteilung 731 and who could quite possibly have been a Hetzer crew member. He was definitely a driver, based on the awards.........."

Never did claim anywhere that he without any doubt crewed a Hetzer

I can also tell you this..... A in-depth review by a few very advanced and respected collectors (I think one of them would even get your approval) revealed that the photo on the SA document is period applied and 100% original to the ID, which proves the man in the photo attached to the inside front cover of the Soldbuch 'IS' in fact, without any doubt, the same man the Soldbuch originally belonged to.

This little group was posted for Henner and as it is not mine. I'll let him decide on whether or not to fill you in on the rest of details.




I completely agree with you there. A very hefty price to pay for a Soldbuch without even an EKII or GAB award entry. But as long as the new owner is happy then that's all that matters.

Best,
Rob

Re read the whole thread plus sales thread. When you have a spare day or two take note of times and dates. Note, first person to mention the word STUG crew member! It's not a competion. Enough from me