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    #31
    Roger

    Not trying to rip it apart, but not being listed as Rk recipient is plausible in February of 45 but being awarded in March of 43 as a holder of the Dkig there was a good two years of war left for records to "catch up" .

    Since you don’t seem disappointed that the entries are suspect for the later awards I am hoping you didn’t pay a Knightcross premium on this group and if the hand the wrote the Rk entries is the same that put in the confirmed kills in the Wp that can be dismissed as well. It may not have been Lange at all doing it post war but more likely a faker attempting to sex it up to make it more valuable to sell.

    I feel that since the seller may have misrepresented the group to you I think what ever you signed not to share information is null and void at this point .If it was me i would want to find the truth by any means necessary


    Ian

    Comment

      #32
      Group

      Hi,

      Thanks for all your thoughts. Part of the group came via a dealer who received it directly from Hubert Lange (and I am 100% sure that the dealer didn't change anything as I have seen copies of the pages taken by someone who interviewed Lange when he was still alive and who was allowed to take copies of the documents). The other part of the group was directly from the family.

      The Flugbuch and Leistungsbuch have KG51 stamp and was signed by Bender. I also have the Frontflugspange documents signed by Major Unrau with KG51 stamp. So, while you might have concerns about the KC and DkiG, I am 100% sure that he flew Me 262 missions and this is THE most important to me (as I don't plan to sell the group). If anybody faked the KC and DKiG and victory entries, then it must have been Lange himself as

      1) they were in the documents already when he still owned them and was alive
      2) the 1957 documents clearly state that he had the KC and DKiG --> hence, already at that time the Wehrpass must have had these entries --> no one else than Lange himself OR an official during the war must have added them to the Wehrpass and Soldbuch!

      Hello BHS1956: Thanks! I'll try to contact him.

      It would help if anybody could identify the stamp. If it was not from 14 Fl.Div. but a random Luftwaffe stamp picked up by Lange after the war that he used to fake (which I don't believe) I am sure it would not be from 14. Fl.Div. That would be too much of a coincidence.

      And even if at the end everything looks like Lange added the KC, DKiG etc. entries himself, it is still interesting since a historic fact and not done by a dealer but by the owner himself.

      Regards
      Roger

      Comment

        #33
        KC group

        Roger,

        Thanks again for showing these items and if at any point you have an opportunity to show additional items that would be very much appreciated.

        I may be in the minority however in my opinion the entries are fine, or at least in so far as can be ascertained w/o having been there. Certainly as Ian noted w/o having the benefit of all the items in front of us makes it difficult to fill in some of the blanks. Certainly the RK not being listed is perhaps more acceptable to being missing from the rolls due to its late awarding however the DKiG is perplexing since as was noted in March of 43 it should be listed in existing publications regarding award recipients.
        I did a brief shearch among the Ehrenliste I have and what i found online but unfortunatley mid-Mar. 43 could not be found, perhaps someone else has an example.

        It should be noted the entries of the DKiG have differant penmanship from SB to WP.

        Whoever put in the entries he has damn nice hand writing and if these are proven to be faulty, again I believe they are fine, this would concern me on a larger scale vs. this one group.

        My two cents.

        Nice group

        Jeremy

        Comment

          #34
          Hi Jeremy,

          Thank you for your comments. I am glad that at least one still believes that it might not be fake :-)

          I had a look again at the DKiG entries. It is difficult to read and actually, I think it is 45 rather than 43. This is also supported by the fact that he received the Frontflugspange with Anhaenger 200 only in Feb 1945 (for which I have the original award certificate). In the SB, there is first the Frontflugspange entry, then the DKiG entry and only then the KC entry. So, the DKiG seems to have been awarded after the Frontflugspange with 200, i.e. after Feb 45. Would that make sense? That would mean, however, that he was awarded the DKiG and then directly - or without a long delay - the KC.

          Regards
          Roger

          Comment

            #35
            1957 Doc

            Hi,

            Attached is the document from 1957 which lists the awards (according to the Wehrpass) proving that the entries were there already in 1957 and wasn't added by a dealer.

            In the Soldbuch, the DKiG award seems to be awarded in January 1945, even though it was read as March 1943 in the Wehrpass by the Bundeswehr officials.

            The DKiG entry in the Soldbuch has a KG51 stamp.

            I hope this helps a bit further to solve this mistery.

            Regards
            Roger
            Attached Files

            Comment

              #36
              Roger,

              Firstly, I never said it was fake, however I did say from what you have shown I am not so convinced.

              Secondly, the authorising stamp looks odd for the RK, there has been some "ammendments" later and the scans you show are not sufficient for me to give a 100% opinion.

              However not being listed so many years after the war and numerous works on Ritterkreuzträger, I find it hard to believe now.

              I am not dismissing it out of hand but I would need to see more than what you have shown.......

              I also do not tend to "buy" the story it came direct from the family through a dealer unless I have concrete proof (depends which dealer it's coming from )......usually it has gone through a runner at least and/or even from a collector!

              I bought a U-Boat group years ago. According to the dealer it had come straight from the family. The group consisted of photos, Soldbuch and all Urkunden, however one thing struck me about the U-Boot Spange in Silber Urkunde, it just didn't look right. I scanned it, put it under a black light and it glowed!!!!! Confronted the dealer and he said that is how it came from the veteran......so he faked his own award citation??? Hardly!!!
              Eventually the dealer did give me a partial refund for the group.
              Anyway years later a good friend of mine was talking to a German collector and this group came up in conversation, turns out the Urkunde was added and it had been in his collection for years!!!!!

              Regards,
              Ian
              Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

              Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

              Comment

                #37
                Looks like the DKiG was awarded in 1943......I would have expected him to have been listed in the numerous works........

                With that said, I too have documents from the 50's authorising awards taken from the Soldbuch or Wehrpaß, as you say it does not confirm the award, however it does confirm they have been there for a long time!!!

                If he was awarded the RK from 14 Flieger Division on that date, it is not actually awarded by the correct authority. Should have been OKL/OKW.....so he could well have been one of those who'se award was actually revoked.......Walter Peer-Fellgiebel's book goes at length to mention this.

                Would like to see more if you can........

                Cheers,
                Ian
                Photos/images copyright © Ian Jewison collection

                Collecting interests: Cavalry units, 1 Kavallerie/24 Panzer Division, Stukageschwader 1

                Comment

                  #38
                  Rk

                  Hi Ian,

                  I didn't want to accuse you that you said it was fake. If this is how it was understood, I have to excuse myself, that wasn't my intention.

                  You can believe me when I say that one part of the group came directly from the family and the other via 1 dealer. Even if this 1 dealer changed anything, for sure not the KC and DKiG entries as they have been there already in 1957 as the document I just posted prooves. So, I am not at all worried about dealers.

                  The Wehrpass was a second issue and naturally a lot of information was filled again at one time by the same person.

                  For me it is like this:
                  1) Either he never got the KC and DKiG and faked it himself after the war using a Luftwaffe stamp and the same signature for all different kinds of entries, OR
                  2) It is original and was added in the very last days of the war by 14 Fl.Div. Perhaps he never got the award certificate or the award itself.

                  As long as there is no list that shows that he really got these awards it is probably not 100% sure if he really did or if he faked the entries, but in this case I assume the entries are right and that Lange did not fake them. If he didn't receive the KC and DKiG do you think he would have accepted the 1957 awards? Only if he faked the entries himself, otherwise he would have said: "I didn't get these awards so I am not allowed to wear the 1957 awards". Do you agree?

                  Kind regards
                  Roger

                  Comment

                    #39
                    2nd post

                    HI Ian,

                    Just saw your 2nd post after I posted my reply. I have to go now but will send some more scans later tonight.

                    Kind regards
                    Roger

                    Comment

                      #40
                      The post war document (1957) only validates that the awards are listed in the SB and WP. It does not insure that the listed awards were rendered.
                      Jeff

                      Comment

                        #41
                        Wp /sb

                        Hello Jungo,

                        Yes, that I know. I just wanted to proof that the entries were not added by a dealer recently.

                        Regards
                        Roger

                        Comment

                          #42
                          what is the stamp, full signature block etc fm the 57 document?

                          Comment

                            #43
                            57

                            On the front a Oberstlt. u. Kommandeur Siegert signed, on the backside an Oblt (see attached photo)
                            Attached Files

                            Comment

                              #44
                              Sb

                              I attach a photo of his promotion page from the Wehrpass. Interestingly, the same signature appears again, but not as last entry. There is a stamp with the FPN 37119 which could belong to the other singature, however. Does anyone know to which unit 37119 belonged to?
                              Attached Files

                              Comment

                                #45
                                Sb

                                And the promotion page from the Soldbuch. He was promoted to Oberleutnant on 1.1.45 (like also mentioned in the Wehrpass). Interestingly, there is the same type of stamp in the Soldbuch on this page but with another signature.

                                Regards
                                Roger

                                PS: Sorry for the relatively bad quality of the photo. I don't want to bend the SB, WP for the scanner and took photos with my digital camera.
                                Attached Files

                                Comment

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