ss wehrpass info

[Ian Jewison]

I have received numerous PM's and emails to voice my thoughts or opinions on this thread, however,

as I do not collect KZ items, nor will I ever collect such items I do not have any examples of my own to compare, although there are many examples for sale on dealers sites I am not convinced all are what they appear to be!

Therefore I have nothing further to say on this matter......

Regards,
Ian

[peter u]

To Chris:
Of course I understand your problem with the awards Chris they are not the normal standard issue type of entry, on that point I agree!

But the real value of this wp doesn't lay in its awards or previous service but in his KL-Auschwitz service, this is my view point on this matter. I would not pay a premium because of the awards or give it a higher estimate. This is not a good combat vetran, it is just what it is a "warcriminel".
The key to all answers about confirmation on this is in the hands of Barry.

To Ian and all: Of course they are not realy scarce if you know where to look for them you wil find one (just like with all German WW2 related items IMO).

And like this thread was started "watch out" collectors because they are easly faked or not what the pretend to be.

I just hope that some collectors who are following this thread, which want to own a KL-guard wp or sb in the futher are not discouraged but have learned some valuable lessons on this nice forum!
But in the end when you decide to buy or trade for an KL-guard; you have to make up your own mind about it, and like I said before it is not an easy subject matter but you can learn about it don't be dicouraged!

[Chris Boonzaier]

Well, it seems the extra research about these docs is a long way from being posted....

From his WP though.... how about his battle page... and how about his wound/Hospital page?

Hios wounds SHOULD be in there.......

[peter u]

Hello Chris,

Good point! Remember the wp is not mine. If it was you would see more scans.
The best proof for me is as Barry claims to have his name being recorded in the national archive and at the Auschwitz-museum. Because pages 1, 2 , 3 and 12 look original to me.

Chris do you have an opinion on the first wp where this thread was started with?

Thanks Chris for not sharing my point there should be difference of opinion on subjects that are not standard issue, like I said before to collectors who would want to purchase a KL-document be open minded but not naive about this kind of wp.
Until the next reply, Peter

[peter u]

Chris,

The examples posted by me and polux and also the sb's by stormfighter are very good examples of how they should look.
Also Polux gave some good advise about books you can read about this subject.

I have only one example of sb in my collection and Barry did posted in this thread. The other example I have is a luftwaffe wachbatalion guarding the outside perimeter of "mittelbau-KL" if someone can post the pictures of this wp I will gladly share them with you guys.

Also some of the study about KZ-organisation needs to be done by yourself as well; reading books about this subject-matter is vital! There are very good publications about this subject-matter in every language available. And you can find them in your local libary's in Belgium, it is a high school subject-matter in Belgium. Alas my books are in Flemish and can only advise you guys about these books I have read about this subject-matter.

This forum can only help us by collectors posting their examples that are in their private collections so that collectors can compare isn't it.
And if the are not willing to do so we can not compare them can we? Discusion about items we can not see is pointless.
I asked this before in this thread. Please post your KL-Guard wp & sb's I know for a certanty that there are more examples out there with other forum members.

[Imperial-German]

here are Peters scans

[Lynton Battrick]

http://www.medalsandmilitaria.co.uk/...asp?item=GD005

http://militariarelics.com/Default.aspx?C=x....Link doesn't take you too the page,sorry but go to 'documents Wehrpass SS-Totenkopf-Sturmbann-Mittlebau' and there is one to someone who served in the same unit previously.

It would seem that these certainly aren't hard to find.here are links to 2.

regards,Lynton.

[peter u]

To give you guys an idea about the complexity of KL organisation:

The local KL in Belgium was "auffangslager - Breendonk" not an offical KL (Bergen - Belsen was also not an offical KL but an "aufenhaltslager" but what is in a name!).
This camp was under offical control of befhelshaber fur Belgien und Nord-Frankreich this was a whermacht general, but the camp was organised by the SD abteilung for Belgium. The camp was guarded inside and outside by landesschutzen , who also did the executions, replaced in 1944 by Rumanian and Hungarian waffen ss soldiers. The campcommander was an SD major assisted by former totenkopfverbande officers and local colaborators (SD members also) they controled the actual organistaion: food, punishment, ...etc. The investigations (read torture) was done by local colaborators (low ranking SD members) and German police officers.

Not easy stuff, isn't it?

[peter u]

Hello Lynton,

Like I said on this thread no 36.
These came on the market a few years a go all similar examples (even the perforation of the cover).
What there origin is I don't know; perhaps somebody found a compleet box with these wp. But you have to remeber this was a large area that needed to be guarded. I think mine is an original also the others I have seen; but they are what they are outside guards! Don't be mistaken the are not of the same level as the wp's and sb's you have seen previous on this thread.

[polux]

Kl

Hello,

Just for Chris: enclosed a copy of a diploma KVK 2. Kl. attributed by Himmler (Feld-Kommandostelle, 1st Mdle). Date : in January, 1944. Document being in my archives, source Internet.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[polux]

Kl

Hello,

To pursue the discussion begun by Peter : here are two images of a WP Mittelbau - Sachsenhausen.

Cordial greetings.

Polux

[Panzer Rob]

.

[polux]

Kl

Page 22, same doc

[Panzer Rob]

Hi guys-

This has turned out to be a very productive and informative discussion and has brought us images of some truly outstanding and rare examples of KL related SS Soldb******252;cher (pages 1 and 2).

I too am under the impression that Wehrmacht personnel who were incorporated into the KL system became members of the Waffen-SS, and I believe this Soldbuch to be a well-documented example of this process of assimilation.

August Trapp, born 23.January1890, was called up to active duty with the Wehrmacht very late in the war. On 23.August 1944 was assigned to Ld.Sch.Ers.Bt.1 and shortly after sent to Sachsenhausen where on 10.September 1944, he was issued kit and gear. Very shortly after that he was transferred to Buchenwald. If you look at his rank listed on page 1, you will clearly see it listed SS-Sch******252;tze, an entry made on 17.September, my guess is that this was done just after he was permanently assigned at Buchenwald as a camp guard (see page 3). This, to me, is proof that Wehrmacht soldiers absorbed by the SS and used as KL guards were in fact made members of the SS. Well, on paper anyway.

Take a look at this guy’s picture… he was one creepy, twisted and evil-looking SOB

I purchased this from Weitze's site a few months back and I feel rather good about it, however after seeing how experienced some of you guys are with camp books (and reading a few times that some have seen dodgy books on his site) I’d really like to hear your thoughts and input on this one.

Rob

[Panzer Rob]