The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dietrich Maerz]

... but so much doubt now hung unfairly over the 'B' Types. I think great intentions, but the results have resulted in irresponsible comments in other threads and here. (Not a dig at you Dietrich.)

Brian,

it is fact that the unmarked, unmagnetic are B-Types and have been considered already as 'fakes' by others before, Detlev Niemann among them. The article has it only made possible to identify those more clearly.
However, don't forget: No provenance for 800-4 and 935-4! That's a fact also, at least as per today.


Dave,

I don't know when the "silver' frosting was introduced, but surely not during the war. And also, I was so far under the impression that the heavily flawed unmagnetic, unmarked was dubbed by you as a 'british' made examples...
So do we revise this now and say the heavily flawed unmarked unmagnetic are pre-57?
There are flawed 57's. I will compare the flwa pattern on the arms with the B-Type. This will tell a lot ...


Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, what do you think of Bob's examples?

I didn't assert that the 'silver' was pre '57 at all!

[Dietrich Maerz]

By the way, there is a cross for sale at a German dealer site. Unmagnetic, unmarked. I think I can see the knee flaw in the 6-9 o'clock area. Now this might be wrong, better pictures might be needed. However, this cross has alledged 'provenance' and was 'awarded' 20th March 1943. It even comes with the original cellophane cover!

Now if this is a B-Type, the story is wrong! Because we all seem to agree that the first B-Type was the 935-4 and that was late in the war and without any provenance (so far??).

If it is an A-Type, the Praesidialkanzlei and the LDO was fooled heavily by this non-standard cross. A unmarked, unmagnetic in the middle of the war would surely topple a lot of knowns and theories at once.

Very controversial piece, to say the least.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Give us the link!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich, what do you think of Bob's examples?
I didn't assert that the 'silver' was pre '57 at all!

Dave,

I'm not the judge of any pieces.
I cannot see the dent row and asked Bob already about it. I draw my own conclusions out of my research but I will not say "This is good" or "This is bad" at this point in time.

And I also did not assert that the silver was pre-57, I only said it's post-45, IMHO.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

We see the dent row in some but not others.....I bloody well see the dent row and I know of Bob's 'buys'!


I believe one of the crosses first shown by him was a non magnetic 'dented' cross.

I surely didn't ask your judgement I merely asked 'what do you think'!

[Dave Kane]

I just realized that this is turning in to a pre or post discussion RATHER than a 1 or 2 die chat!!!

Let's start a FRANK pre or post discussion without all the crap

[Bob Hritz]

Dave,


I agree, a FAKE or REAL thread on Steinhauer crosses. Those who know me are aware I haven't bought a Knight's Cross in about 2 decades and they further know where I obtained the crosses, over the years of the 1970's and 1980's.

I have Steinhauer crosses that only I could love, BUT I know where I got them!

Actually, my favorite is the first one I posted, an unmarked non-magnetic cross that is as beautiful and finely crafted as any Knight's Cross I own.

I would wonder when the 3/4 ring crosses were awarded. The Orders Chancellory would surely have done a double take seeing this type of non-magnetic anomoly. (I just wish one would come my way)

When I found an Otto Shickle cross, I about had to give it away as it was considered a crude fake, in the 1980's. No one wanted it and I was not excited over owning it. Now it is real.

Like ladies skirt lengths, fashions change and things become hot or not. Much to learn and great research begins with threads like this.

Keep on plugging, Dietrich. Your findings are always of interest to me. We may disagree on occasion, but eventually we will get closer to the truth.

Over the weekend, I will try to find my notes and provide the exact circumstances of each cross I posted. Let's hope I can find my notebooks after this difficult relocation.

Bob Hritz

[Dietrich Maerz]

Bob,

some very wise and interesting words from somebody who dug out the pieces from the Veterans. Especially the Schickle example is a very good one. It goes a long way to show that there is no 'gospel'. Neither then nor now.

However, 'veteran stories' are a two sided sword as we all know and we should not fall into the usual trap of believing the veterans when it serves our believe or dircrediting the story when it is not supporting our believe.

I hate to come back to the Rounder discussion at this point but it must be clearly said that ALL veteran or other stories about sightings or bring backs were heavily discounted as wrong or made up.

One cannot have it both ways ....

The discussion here is about strictly physical evidence on the crosses itself and a time line - as much as this is possible - is only tied to numerous crosses with provenance.

We know for sure that the A-Type was the first model and we are fairly certain that the 935-4 was the first model of the B-Type. We are also fairly certain that the 935-4 were introduced late in the war, around mid to end 44, IMHO.

The first cross you show seems to be a B-Type. I think I can see the dent row. It is unmarked and unmagnetic. Why would S&L produce a cross with non-silver frame and non-iron core late in the war when they also produced the 935-4 and maybe even the 800-4? It clearly was against the regulations of the LDO and also against the stipulation of the Praesidialkanzlei, which mandated to mark the crosses with the Lieferanten-Nummer.

Before the identification of A and B Type this cross would have been considered very early, now it's very late...

Dietrich

[Tiger 1]

Three days without comments. It's aweful quiet around here!

Tony

[Dave Kane]

I'll hold off a bit!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Today I got the color copies of the Revue article, dated 23rd Mat 1953, from Dave! Thanks a lot, Dave!

Two things are interesting and belong clearly to this thread:

In this little box is say that the manufacture and the wearing of German war orders and medals is still not allowed. But some manufacturers have restarted production and one can buy thoses orders and medals in the Ruhr area. The article is about a Mr. Knoth in Essen who has a tabacco shop but his only a 'emercency' business. He - so the article - is trading with militaria since decades.

But he only sells to those who can show the proper documents of ownership (Wehrpass, award document)....


Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

The other part is also interesting, maybe even more than the one above:


It starts of with talking about ribbons and the source (is says clearly that the wares he sells is NOT from old storage). The article then goes on to mention that sold out articles can be ordered and will be available in 4 weeks and then" sometimes Mr. Knoth sends his customers also directly to his main source Steinhauer and Lueck" and it also states that S&L also manufactures the new merit orders of the Federal Republic of Germany. No mentioning of the 1957 version - and why should it be the case in 1953!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich...maybe more suited to the "How to determine post war S&L" post!!

This really hasn't anything to do with multi die or refurbished.

Couple this article with observations of post war S&L crosses and folks might begin to look at non magnetic, poor quality and the general appearance of these items.

Anyway, I must bow to your interpretation of the article BUT I took from it that S&L was already back in business making the awards even from prior to WWI up to and including the intended Bundes awards....afterall '57 didn't come overnight and there had to be planning, rules and regs. etc.

Just look at the '57 forms regarding the rules, metals etc, I I sent you some time back!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

already earlier I thought it was not a correct "interpretation" of the article but I just couldn't read it. Now what I just stated here is not an "interpretation" - it's a translation. It clearly says "Merit Order of the Federal Republic" (Bundesverdienstkreuz or Verdienstorden, which was instituted on 7th Sept. 1951)

The papers you did send me are about the re-institution of the "Orders and Medals of the timeframe 1934 - 1945 in modified form". The date of that legislation is 14th of August 1957 and was made public on 1st February 1958.

It is absolutely inconceivable that already in 1953 any company was producing this 'new form' the more so since the possibility to contradict or change any 'laws' instituted by the Allied Occupation Forces was only given after the ratification of the Paris Treaty on 5.May 1955. There was no leagl basis (quite the contrary) to produce such things.

The first reading regarding the "new form" was conducted in the Bundestag on 30th October 1956 - three years after the Revue article!!!

IMHO this article has very well something to do with one of the initial intends of my article, i.e. the fact that S&L did produce swastika crosses after the war, freely, openly and on orders from at least one (very likely more) 'dealer'. The one or two die discussion is just a side show - lets call it A and B for the sake of peace.

Dietrich