The Two S&L Dies for RK's

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dietrich, that is what has me confounded...560 is NOT the obverse 6/9 corner of my cross!

Dave,

what can I say. That's what I photographed. here's another shot of the same area.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

But coming back to the 1957 issue. As I said, the 57 cross has the dent row, BUT it has neither the 9-12 o'clock NOR the 6-9 o'clock knee flaws!

But it has this feature, which all 57 1st model crosses, that I have looked at, have so far. This step at the upper rim portion. And this step is neither present at the A-Type nor the B-Type!

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, that's really what Brian and I have been saying all along!! You asserted that the 'die don't lie'....agreed!!!


This 'step' is a product of HAND FINISHING as is the flash or lack of!!

You surely observed the aggressive finishing, deep striations etc. in the mint cross I sent you...

EVERY cross will be generally different BUT not in the areas I showed many many post ago

[Dietrich Maerz]

Handfinishing?

Same step on a later 57. Magnetic, unmarked frame.

[Dietrich Maerz]

... another 57, unmarked, magnetic.

[Dietrich Maerz]

S&L 1957, 2nd model - no step! Handfinishing? No way! A die don't lie!

[Dave Kane]

Different 'hand'? Different method to finish the cross....different material requiring a different process?


I'm almost tempted to 'peel off' the bit of flashing on my cross just to prove a point but can't bring myself to do it!

Are you now saying there were more than 2 die....if yes, I must leave the discussion!

Or, could it be right back to 'HAND FINISHING' which equates to yet another rehabilitation of the original die?
PS, I'll post pics of the obverse 6/9 of my cross tomorrow and maybe you can show they are the same!

[Dietrich Maerz]

Dave,

three things:

- if you peel of the small flaw at the obverse of your 935-4 it is still present at the reverse and at all other B-Types I have observed so far (in hand and with lot's of pictures). So the 'problem does not go away if you mutilate your cross.

- I'm not suggesting anything. I'm observing and reporting. Fact is, all the 57 I have in hand have the same step nearly looking exactly the same (and it is a VERY small step!) with all the crosses. The same crosses have the dent row, but do not have the knee flaw nor traces of it.

- Fact is also that neither the A-Type, nor the B-Type nor the 2nd model 1957 have this step.

And it is not handfinishing, that's sure for me. Now you can make whatever you want out of that. I don't have an explanation but I certainly are free to think about it.

Dietrich

[Dietrich Maerz]

PS, I'll post pics of the obverse 6/9 of my cross tomorrow and maybe you can show they are the same!

I don't know what you are saying with this? The pictures I have are from your cross, obverse and reverse. Just look at the greenish discoloration.

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, maybe the magnification distorts the image but all I have is 50X and it just doesn't appear the same....


I'll shoot some pics on Thurs. as I'll be in Colorado tomorrow!

[Dietrich Maerz]

It is for sure the same. And the magnification I was using is maybe 25x max. I guess.
But what is there to proove? It is there and it is fully developed on the reverse. And it is on the other crosses obverse and reverse. So where's the problem?

Dietrich

[Dave Kane]

Dietrich, I hope no problem at all...just discussion re: 1 original die or more thereafter!



I assert just one and you are bent on 2 or maybe more. This is evidenced by the thread 'title' alone....'the two......'

We have generally 'sidestepped', albeit called for by Brian, myself ,
and brought to some clarity by Tom's chat with a guy in the industry for 25 years or so.

The degrading of the die and the (probably) many times it was brought back to life left the 'scars' we see on the surface of the crosses....this roughness just isn't seen on early pieces but appears on later peices and in ALL OVER questionable peices....why, because of repairs

[VIPER]

Is the frame silver plated or rhodium plated? Looks 'thick' for rhodium.

Brian..........Frame is marked 800 and appears to be solid, no evidence of plateing.

[Biro]

While I still can't decide on which side of the 'die' I sit...... what I can decide - and feel confident adding here - is that no WAY is this recurring ridge on the 57's the result of coincidental hand finishing.

Keep it going gents....

(In the order Dietrich posted them.....)

regards

Marshall

[Brian S]

Yes, that ridge you found on the '57s is significant. Not hand finishing, me thinks. Dave, it could be yet more work to the die, this time as the '57 folks got their hands on it for a final run at the '57 crosses before the next generation.